New to BackyardEOS

[S-D]

Hello.

 

I just downloaded the trial version of BYE and have to say, despite all of the posts about difficulties with the older Canon 350D, I was able to connect with no issues.

 

I realize the 350D is an older model and many features won't be supported, but I am unable to successfully take any test shots and am wondering what I might be doing incorrectly.

 

I watched the video presentation all the way through and loved it, but it didn't really cover the differences in functionality for older cameras.

 

Here is what happens:

 

I am able to connect; once in the imaging section, the Camera Information Center is mostly empty and Quality is set to "IMAGE_UNKOWN+".  Is this normal?

 

In the Capture Plan Center, none of the options in the Shutter dropdown seem to work.  I know that bulb will not work without DSUSB, which I do not have, but I was hoping another option would work.  The error I get no matter what I try is:  "ERROR EDS_ERR_NOT_SUPPORTED : EDSDK.EdsSetPropertyData(cameraRef, SaveTo(11), 0, size(4), 2)"

 

I guess my question is: is there much I can do with the camera I have without DSUSB?

 

I know that many features won't work, like Live View, etc., but I was hoping that even so, there would be a number of things I could control.

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this and for any help anyone can offer.

 

S-D

[astroman133]

The exposure is the length of time that the shutter is open. So you can't change that after the fact.

 

However, you can brighten the image so that it uses more of the range of useful pixel values. This is called "stretching" the image.

 

With a DSLR you can basically shoot RAW or JPG (or perhaps both).  The problem with in-camera JPG processing is that camera's process compresses the data by reducing the number of colors. This process can not be reversed so the "lost" data is not recoverable. By shooting RAW you get all the data and have more control over how that data is treated.

 

Each photo site (pixel) has a red, green, or blue filter over it (the Bayer array) and accumulates a value based on the number of photons that are transmitted through the filter while the shutter is open. So in the RAW image each pixel has only 1 value which represents the intensity of light for the color of the filter that covers the pixel. One thing that has to happen early in the process of processing the data is to Debayer it.  The Debayering process assigns values to each pixel for the 2 colors that it lacks. For example, a red pixel is assigned green and blue values based on the intensity values of its neighboring green and blue pixels. The result is a color image with no "lost" data. In addition, depending on the software that is doing the conversion, the white balance of the image can be adjusted by using information about the camera's WB setting at the time the image was captured. Again, depending on your software, you could skip the WB adjustment and balance the colors yourself at a later time.

 

At this point in time, the data is just a matrix of numbers. These numbers can be saved in a number of photographic formats. Because you want to use all of the available data for the following steps, you want to choose a format that does not cause any of that data to be lost through an unrecoverable compression process. Typical choices are FITS (typically uncompressed) or TIFF (with a lossless compression). These formats are different from the CR2 that came from the camera, but they have not been compressed and they have been converted to a color image where each pixel has a red, a green, and a blue value.

 

There are typically more steps after this than stack and process.

 

The subsequent steps include typically include:

 

Calibration - apply a master dark and a master flat; remove hot and cold pixels
Normalization - adjust the overall brightness of the images to the image set average
Grading - measure how round the stars are and exclude the worst images
Aligning - align the stars that have passed the grading process
Combining - stack the aligned images.

 

What comes out of this process is a single image that represents what the camera captured during the imaging session.

 

Now you can start processing the image. Post processing includes, but is not limited to: Stretching, Saturation, Sharpening, Smoothing. Typically these operations can be applied to the entire image or to selected parts of the image.

 

I hope this helps.

[S-D]

Thanks so much for the advice.  I really appreciate it.

 

The gears on the SLT are metal and the scope can be adjusted forward or back to change the balance point, but I definitely take your point on the other points.  Also the current mount is a goto, so I would assume the goto could be moved to the new mount?

 

The reason all this came up in the first place was that I was trying to take photos of the planets and moon with camera at prime and through the viewfinder everything was in perfect focus, but without live view, when I got back in later everything was just off focus.

 

Trying to find a better way to focus led me to BYE and then I realized that I could use BYE with my current camera.

 

I think BYE is fantastic and would still like to use it.

 

Taking into account your information about the new mount, I would still welcome anyone's advice on a camera upgrade.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and your patience with my relative lack of knowledge on the subject.  i really appreciate it.

 

S-D

[S-D]

Wow, thanks Rick.

 

I think my head just expoloded. 

 

It is evident to me that I have a lot of trial and error learning ahead of me.

 

So basically, all of the settings i have in Raw Therapy for Exposer like Exposure Comensation, Highlight Recovery, Black Level, Shadow Recovery, RAW White and Black Points, etc. aren't really related to the RAW image, they can be applied to any image type?  I missunderstood, I thought that those were only available to me because I was shooting in RAW.

 

I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond and share your knowledge.

 

S-D

[s3igell]

For a change, I'm going to respond contrary to Rick:

 

There are a goodly number of AP Imagers (mostly beginners) who have success with a Celestron NexStar 127SLT.  

 

Yes, you will have a number of Issues and Challenges ahead of you.  But these are Surmountable...

 

Here is just one thread for such users:  Mounting DSLR on Celestron NexStar 127SLT

(Sorry, Guylain, but I believe you've allowed Links for other Forums as long as it is specifically pertinent.)

[astroman133]

I have never used Raw Therapee because it does not implement an astrophotography workflow, so I cannot confirm your statement about how RT could be used for other image types. However, the terms seem like general functions that could be applied to any type of image. I would be surprised if they were not all duplicated, perhaps with a different name, in almost every image manipulation application.

 

RT is apparently used for doing raw conversion and initial processing of individual raw files. These types of processing (adjusting white and black points, contrast enhancement, etc) are not done on astronomical, deep sky, images until after they are stacked.

[admin]

For a change, I'm going to respond contrary to Rick:

 

There are a goodly number of AP Imagers (mostly beginners) who have success with a Celestron NexStar 127SLT.  

 

Yes, you will have a number of Issues and Challenges ahead of you.  But these are Surmountable...

 

Here is just one thread for such users:  Mounting DSLR on Celestron NexStar 127SLT

(Sorry, Guylain, but I believe you've allowed Links for other Forums as long as it is specifically pertinent.)

 

No apologies needed.  Anything astronomy related is fair game in good spirit of helping anyone who needs help.  I don't mind.

[S-D]

Gotcha, that makes sense.

 

S-D

[astroman133]

A family joined my old astronomy club and bought a factory-fresh NexStar 127 SLT for their quadriplegic daughter to use in their back yard.  They could never get it to align and asked for help.  I volunteered and went to their house one night. I had no problem getting the scope to align and to slew to objects. The Dad however could not get it to align...Oh, we are on daylight saving time?

 

We/he got quite a bit of practice doing alignments because there were so many trees in their back yard that we had to move the tripod to a different part of the yard to see the next object that they wanted to view.  That was tedious, but workable. However, by the end of the night the azimuth motor was stalled and we could not figure out what was happening. It just would not slew in either direction of azimuth. I suggested that they contact Celestron to return it for warranty service.  Before they could do that they accidentally bumped the tripod and the OTA slid out of the saddle and hit the dining room floor..  They assumed that Celestron would not handle the stalled motor as a warranty repair because of the external damage to the optical tube. Some other members were able to repair the damage to the OTA but could never figure out what was wrong with the azimuth motors and gearing.

 

Shortly thereafter I moved away so I don't know what happened to the scope.

 

That is my experience with the NexStar 127 SLT and why I recommended not trying to do photography with it.

 

With all that said, if you still want to try it, I really like my T5i for astrophotography.  It is a relatively low end DSLR and should do well when coupled with a decent scope and mount.

[S-D]

I really appreciate all the input.

 

I am definitely sticking with my current scope, as I don't have $2,000;to upgrade at the moment and have had no real issues with it, but I will definitely look into and appreciate the camera suggestions.

 

I realize that with the Nexstar there will be challenges, but since I am new to this and still figuring out how much I will invest in this in the future, I'm trying to do what I can with what I have.

 

As I figure things out I'm sure I'll upgrade along the way.

 

For now I'll look at upgrading the camera.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

S-D

[s3igell]

The subsequent steps include typically include:

 

Calibration - apply a master dark and a master flat; remove hot and cold pixels

Normalization - adjust the overall brightness of the images to the image set average

Grading - measure how round the stars are and exclude the worst images

Aligning - align the stars that have passed the grading process

Combining - stack the aligned images.

 

What comes out of this process is a single image that represents what the camera captured during the imaging session.

 

Now you can start processing the image. Post processing includes, but is not limited to: Stretching, Saturation, Sharpening, Smoothing. Typically these operations can be applied to the entire image or to selected parts of the image.

 

I hope this helps.

There's no need for "Mind Blown"...

 

There are several AP Image Calibration/Stacking Apps which do ALL-of-the-ABOVE with only minimal "Skills" required...

 

The best place to start is "DeepSkyStacker" (DSS) - a Free App that handles most all CCDs and all but the newest DSLR Raws.  All that you would need to know is available in the FAQs and the Online Support Forums...

[s3igell]

When considering an Upgrade to your Camera, you'll want to decide some Priorities:

1) Do you want to do both Daytime and Nighttime Photography with this New Camera??

2) Would you be satisfied using your current 350D for your Daytime Photography??

3) Do you still hold that you want to do both DSO and Planetary AP Imaging??

4) What is a Realistic Budget??

 

From these, we might be able to provide some better suggestions...

[s3igell]

So basically, all of the settings i have in Raw Therapy for Exposer like Exposure Comensation, Highlight Recovery, Black Level, Shadow Recovery, RAW White and Black Points, etc. aren't really related to the RAW image, they can be applied to any image type?  I missunderstood, I thought that those were only available to me because I was shooting in RAW.

 

It isn't that these Raw Therapee tools aren't applicable to RAW Image files...

 

It's that these Functions aren't all that critical to AP Imaging.  Rather those are all centered around Daytime Photography...

 

For Astrophotography, the core issue is that you get SO LITTLE original Light per Exposure.  So, you need to use Actions such as Calibration and Stacking and Stretching in order to Increase the Light and Reduce the Noise.

These are the Tasks which Apps like DSS or PixInsight or StarTools or ImagesPlus support.

 

Then, after these specialized Actions, you come back to the "Standard" Tasks of Color Balancing and Saturation and Cropping and...

[jimwc6491]

S-D

One alternative to a "new" Camera is a refurbished by CANON camera. Go to the CANON camera website and type in Refurbished camera in the search box.

lots of choices and decent prices. My T3i was a refurbished body only. at that time it saved me a couple hundred on a camera. I

 have had no problems with it so far. buying a refurbished camera makes you feel better about modifying it in the future. 

may need to check back if what you want is out of stock as the out of stock items change over time, just be patient

 

The big box stores have decent prices on cameras also.

 

Also be sure to check the BYEOS supported cameras grid below so you get a camera that is compatible with BYEOS. 

[S-D]

Thanks everyone for all the input.

 

1) Do you want to do both Daytime and Nighttime Photography with this New Camera??

 

It would be nice to be able to grab one camera for both, but not a necessity.

 

2) Would you be satisfied using your current 350D for your Daytime Photography??

 

350D would work for Daytime Photography if need be.

 

3) Do you still hold that you want to do both DSO and Planetary AP Imaging??

 

I think at this point, I would like the ability to do both until I figure out where I want to focus my efforts.  I realize that for DSO I will have to do shorter exposers and stacking.  I also realize that with my current equipment, I won't be taking award winning photos.  I really would like to be able to get something that will be solid for whatever I end up doing (if possible) and then expand my kit from there based on what I want to focus on in the future.

 

4) What is a Realistic Budget??

 

Well, I wasn't really in the market for a new camera until quite recently, but I would like to be around $400 or $500.

 

 

Jim, thanks for the tip about the Canon site.  I will check that out.

Rick, thanks for the input on the T5i.  I will check that one out as well.

s3igell, thanks for the info on using the NexStar

 

S-D

[Jim]

S-D,

 

If you want to have a look at the end to end process of image processing Harry Page has produced a set of videos around the use of Pixinsight. Though these are specific about the use of Pixinsight they will give a good insight of the process flow from image import (flats, darks, lights, bias) through each stage to end picture.

 

You can have a browse through these videos here:

 

http://www.harrysastroshed.com/pixinsight/pixinsight%20video%20html/pixinsighthomenewbie.html

 

After watching Harry's videos I purchased a copy of Pixinsight and slavishly followed the videos to produce my first acceptable (to me at least, even if it wasn't actually a masterpiece) DSO picture.

 

Jim

[S-D]

S3igell, Jim.

 

Thanks so much for the info.  I'll take a look at all the suggested programs/links.

 

Previously, I've done a lot of non astro photography, so this is a bit of a learning curve for me.

 

Your help along with everyone else's is really valuable.

 

Thanks.

 

S-D

[s3igell]

S-D:

Given your answers, I'd suggest:

1) Keep your 350D and get yourself an Intervalometer such as this NEEWER on Amazon for 350D $20; and a 1.25in T-Adapter Combo  such as this one or the combo of a 1.25in T-Adapter and Canon T-Ring for about $50 of your Budget

2) Use it to gather some experience using your NexStar 127SLT on DSOs and Lunar Shots

 

Then, decide where your Money should be spent.

 

If you keep the 350D as part of your AP Imaging Rig, it'll need to be Intervalometer-driven unless you are willing to Buy another Laptop and somehow load it with a 32-bit version of WinXP/Vista.

If that works for you, then your Money could go towards a Planetary / AutoGuider Camera,

If that doesn't work for you, then you could start looking for a Refurbished T3i or T5i (or even look to buy a Used T2i / T3i / T5i from a fellow AP Imager who is in-turn Upgrading to a newer DSLR or CCD).

[S-D]

Hi s3igell. 

 

Thanks very much for responding.

 

Yep, already have the t-adapter and a remote.

 

The issue really was getting good focus.  I would get everything in focus through the viewfinder and when I would get back in to post process, the images were always just off focus (even the moon which is a pretty big/ close target).

 

This led me to Backyard EOS and to the conclusion that I needed a new camera.

 

In addition to being able to use BYE, I like the idea of having live view, etc.

 

This is the second time I've heard mention of the T5i and I've found one within my price range.  Am considering going that rout at the moment.

 

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and thanks to Guylain for allowing me to ask these questions.  I know I've sort of taken over your support section a bit with this.

 

S-D

[AaronSmall]

S-D,

 

I started a few of years ago with a 130SLT on an alt-az mount.  When my wife got a 1100D (T3) I went ahead and order the t-ring and the 1 1/2" adapter as well as purchased BYE.  Works well for brighter DSOs such as M42 but not on many of the dimmer ones.  You need to go to a equatorial mount for the longer exposures due to field rotation.  Balancing was a learning curve, but I was so pleased with my shots (even the ones that were really BAD), it has kept me going.  I eventually bought an old Celestar 8 on a wedge and that totally improved things.  I now have a CGEM and that has opened up a whole new world with guiding.  Only real issue now is how heavy the mount is. Not as portable as the 130SLT and the setup takes longer, but the images are so much better.

 

The T3 is good and well under $500 nowadays but I suggest you go with a higher pixel count.  The T3 is only 12 MPx.  If you found a T5i in your price range, you can't go wrong there.

 

Keep to it and check back here frequently.  Guylain, Rick and S3igell are the gurus and you will learn more from trolling these forums than you ever could on your own.

 

Aaron

[S-D]

Hi Aaron.

 

Thanks for the information and advice.  Yes, I've already been trying to learn as much as I can from the people you mentioned.  Alot of experience and tallent here. 

 

I was wondering if, to counter the need for long exposures, until I am able to upgrade, would stacking multiple shorter 30 second exposures work, along with dark, bias and flats?  I've read that people have had some success with this without an equitorial mount or autoguiding.

 

Of course, I realize to do it right and get great pictures, I will have to upgrade and I am okay with that, but for now, I'm hoping to be able to do what I can with what I have.

 

By the way, I ordered the T5i and it will be arriving this week. 

 

Had a great time watching the Mercury transit this morning as well.

 

Thanks again.

 

S-D

[admin]

Hi Aaron.

 

Thanks for the information and advice.  Yes, I've already been trying to learn as much as I can from the people you mentioned.  Alot of experience and tallent here. 

 

I was wondering if, to counter the need for long exposures, until I am able to upgrade, would stacking multiple shorter 30 second exposures work, along with dark, bias and flats?  I've read that people have had some success with this without an equitorial mount or autoguiding.

 

Of course, I realize to do it right and get great pictures, I will have to upgrade and I am okay with that, but for now, I'm hoping to be able to do what I can with what I have.

 

By the way, I ordered the T5i and it will be arriving this week. 

 

Had a great time watching the Mercury transit this morning as well.

 

Thanks again.

 

S-D

 

Taking several 30-seconds shots will absolutely work, been there done that.

 

It's actually a good place to start.

 

Regards, 

[S-D]

That is great to have that confirmation since that is all the budget will allow for at the moment. 

 

S-D

[admin]

Here is a picture of M51 I took in my early days, before I had an auto guider.

 

This is a stack 175 images of 60 seconds each + 78 of 75 seconds.  

 

 

Not the best processing and not the best image... but it shows what can be achieved with modest equipment.

[S-D]

Wow, thanks for sharing this, Guylain.

 

The day I can take a photo like this will be a great day for me.  It inspires me to get out there with the new camera (when it arrives) and start shooting.

 

S-D

[S-D]

What size scope were you using to get his shot?  Is this typical of what can be achieved with a 5 inch scope with similar exposures or is this a larger, better scope?

 

Thanks.

S-D

[admin]

This was taken with a SkyWatcher 6" Reflector OTA with and EQ3-2 mount dual axis motor and a Canon 40D.

 

Regards,

[S-D]

Very inspiring.

 

Thanks again for sharing it.  It is really great to see the potential there is for some just starting out.

 

S-D

[s3igell]

The issue really was getting good focus.  I would get everything in focus through the viewfinder and when I would get back in to post process, the images were always just off focus (even the moon which is a pretty big/ close target).

Regarding Improving Focus without LiveView:

Don't expect that Eyepiece Focus and DSLR Focus will be the same - The Eyepiece focuses at the Field Lens which is about at the top of the Nosepiece Barrel while the Focal Point for a DSLR is at the Sensor about 25mm inside the Camera.

1. Setup and Balance the Scope with the DSLR Mounted.  Then switch the DSLR out for the Eyepiece without changing the Balance.  Use the Eyepiece to perform the Alignment.  Then Slew to a Bright Star near the Target.
2. Then replace the DSLR.  Perform "Rough Focus" by looking through the Viewfinder at that Bright Star. (Consider marking the Drawtube to easily get back to this point.)
3. Now, set the DSLR to High ISO and use a rather short Exposure of 0.5-1sec.  
4. Take an Exposure and Examine on the Viewscreen - use the Image Zoom and Framing Buttons to examine the Bright Star (or if you DO get a successful BYE 32-bit configuration use your Laptop).
5. Make minor adjustments to your Focus, and take another Exposure.  Repeat until you get your Best Possible Focus.
6. Now, Slew back to your intended Target.  Take a 30-60sec Exposure at High ISO, and examine the Framing of your Target.
7. Then, remember to reset your ISO to a value more appropriate for DSO Exposures (try the "Unity ISO" - for your 350D either 400 or 800ISO).  
8. Set the Intervalometer for 30 or 45 or 60 sec, and start collecting Exposures.

[S-D]

Thanks so much for the help. 

 

That will really help with my shots.

 

I took my first real astrophotography photo yesterday (Mercury transit).  Wasn't able to get a shot without clouds and the sun spot isn't in focus.  It isn't very good, because I still don't really know what I'm doing, but it is a start I suppose. 

 

 

Celestron NexStar 127 SLT

Orion 07710 5.81-Inch ID Full Aperture Glass Telescope Solar Filter

Canon 350D (at prime)

Single shot

ISO 400

1/1250th of a second

 

Post-processed in Raw Therapee

 

S-D

[admin]

That is it then, first photo = hooked for life