Trial Version may have built-in 10 second pause?

[ivarhusa]

I have a Canon 5D Mark III being and Canon 7D Mark II with BYE version 3.2.0 Trial Version.  This is my first use of this software.

I have found I am getting about 10 seconds  extra of  'pause', even with it set at zero (no pause, I presume). Set Pause  to "5" and get 15 seconds of pause between shots

That seems quite wrong. It is an unpublished limitation of the trial version?

[admin]

There is no built-in pause.

Are you sure that time is not the actual download time?

Do you your LENR enabled?

[ivarhusa]

LENR is not enabled.

After the shutter closes there are five seconds where the display says BUSY, then another 5  seconds for downloading. This on a camera that shoots 7 frames per second.

Actually, I have tried this on all three of my Canons and the behavior is the same.

I am curious about the 'DOWNLOAD' time. It appears to be insensitive to file size.  I get the same 7 second download time for a 50mp image as I do for a 0.3BMB file. That just aint right.

Briefly a message popped up giving me the idea that this might not work on "64 bit OS", but that seems unlikely, as I downloaded a 64 bit version.

I can't imagine this is the common experience, as BYE has a list option down to 0 seconds. That would seem a rather misleading setting as the actual pause is always 10 seconds more than selected.  I know that because BYE reports the pause countdown directly after BUSY then DOWNLOAD.

I loaded BYE to my desktop, and it too has the long delays apparently for saving and downloading the file. I timed 5 shots with exposure 1/10 second and no pause and it too 10 seconds. This with the image size set to mimmun, having thus a file of 300KB. It makes no sense to take this long.

 

Thanks for the favor of your prompt reply.  As it is, it is usable, but it doesn't inspire me to purchase, yet.  It gets great reviews. Are 10 second gaps tolerable?

 

 

[admin]

8 hours ago, ivarhusa said:

Briefly a message popped up giving me the idea that this might not work on "64 bit OS", but that seems unlikely, as I downloaded a 64 bit version.

 

I'm not even sure what to say here.  BYE is a 32bit application and run/will run on 32/64 bits OS just the same.  This is no separate 64 bits download of BYE.

Send me the log file and I'll try to shed some time the the time it takes.... but 10'is seconds between exposures is somewhat normal is the depends on your computer/usb connection.

 

BYE will NOT do burst shooting.  It is meant to 1 picture at a time and the next one will start only when the camera is done downloading the previous one.

Run a quick test, try saving to CAMERA CARD only.... do you get the same delay between images?

[astroman133]

Once the shutter closes, the amount of time until BYE is ready to start the next image is based on several criteria:

PC speed
USB speed
BYE processing time

The PC speed, is what it is. There is not much that you can do there except to upgrade it with a faster machine or perhaps add more RAM and/or a solid state disk and also shutdown any unnecessary programs that may be consuming resources.
Most PCs have internal USB hubs. If your laptop has USB ports on both sides this usually indicates multiple hubs. For a desktop, ports on the front usually have a different hub from the ports on the back. Try putting the camera on its own hub, if you can.
BYE does some processing of the images, for example reading and updating the metadata of the image, creating a TIF file of the image, etc. You can adjust these via the Settings and Advanced Settings dialogs to minimize what BYE is doing.

Make sure that the Download folder and BackyardTEMP folder are on local, always available hard drives.

Also, if you are saving both RAW and JPG, try RAW only.

As a benchmark, my T5i requires about 6 seconds between images when downloading RAW only and skipping the Write EXIF data step. It is about 1.25 seconds when saving to the camera's memory card only.

 

[ivarhusa]

ADMIN suggested that I "only save to the card" which is interesting.  I don't know where to set that, but it implies that I would not have to move the files off the camera's media at all. "Business as usual" for me.

 

Will BYE give me the pause programmed (selected) with no time taken for whatever?  I'd take that.

Are there reasons why astronomers might want to haul their images off to the PC ASAP?

FWIW, I have a pretty quick 'gamer' setup with USB2 and SSD main drive. No reason for slowness here.

If I can't end the delay by 'choosing to not download each image' then I might have to just get used to it.

Thanks.

[admin]

Option to save to card is directly in the image capture plan.

Even if you save to CARD only there will be a delay (the time it takes to save the image on the card).

 

[astroman133]

        << Will BYE give me the pause programmed (selected) with no time taken for whatever?  I'd take that.>>

I have used BYE for years and I am pretty sure that it does not put any kind of artificial delay into the image download process. It would not be in their best interest to do so.

It waits until the Canon SDK signals that the image is ready for download. downloads the image, process the image and stores it per your selected options. Once the image has been downloaded, processing is performed on a worker thread.

With my Windows 10 Pro desktop PC, BYE 3.2.0, and Canon T5i, I was able to capture 10 RAW exposures with a 0.1 second duration and download them to my PC in a total time of 46 seconds. I would also say that dithering was disabled, there was no pause time set between exposures, and I was saving RAW images only the PC only. The average image file size is around 18.7 MB and the camera was the only USB device plugged into the ports on the front of the PC.

The only other possible factor that comes to mind that could be causing your system to be slow is that your anti-virus software is intercepting the image data and slowing down the process, but that is just a guess.

BTW the only reason that the camera can shoot burst frames so quickly is because they are buffered in the camera and then processed. That type of image capture is not possible via the SDK and BYE.

[ivarhusa]

Pointing out the SAVE TO option was everything. When I switched the SAVE TO to Camera only I got 10 shots in 17 seconds I can't be too grumpy about an unplanned 2 second delay (at most)

I am happy that BYE works as designed, here. We're good.

[admin]

54 minutes ago, ivarhusa said:

Pointing out the SAVE TO option was everything. When I switched the SAVE TO to Camera only I got 10 shots in 17 seconds I can't be too grumpy about an unplanned 2 second delay (at most)

I am happy that BYE works as designed, here. We're good.

It's not unplanned, it's the time it takes to complete the save to card   The SDK is unable to start a new image capture until the camera is done writing to card.

[astroman133]

I would also like to correct the title of your post. 

There is no such thing as "the trial version of BYE". The version is totally the release number of the software (as in 3.2.0). Trial is the license type. Other license types are Classic and Premium. The Trial license and the Premium license when applied to any version of BYE activate all the features. The difference is that the Trial license expires and the software won't work after 30 days. The Classic license activates only certain features. Both the Classic license and the Premium license never expire.

So if you downloaded the software and applied a Trial license, and you decide to purchase either a Classic or Premium license, you will not need to download a new copy of the program. You simply apply the new license in place of the existing Trial license to convert the program. If you purchase and apply a Premium license to replace the Trial license the only change will be that BYE does not check the Internet to get the current date. All the features will still be available to you.

[ivarhusa]

Thank you.  I was clutching at straws for an explanation.  I bought the Classic Version. Heck, I don't even have my tracker yet (in shipment).

[s3igell]

To fill in a bit of background:

DSLRs do a LOT of In-Camera processing for each Image:

• Performing operations on the RAW data - Bias Subtraction, Hot Pixel Subtraction, HighISO Noise Reduction, Long Exposure Noise Reduction (LENR), Metadata Calculation, Rear LCD Image preparation (several of these can/should be Disabled)
• Writing an embedded JPG Image into the RAW File (regardless of SaveAs settings - which simply ensure no additional JPG is created and Saved/Downloaded separately)
• Interpolating the Image if sRAW or MRAW sizes or Video Output is selected (despite the massive Pixel Count of Modern DSLRs, you really don't want to "cheat" with sRAW or mRAW)
• Compressing and writing the RAW CR2 or CR3 File

Modern Digic Processors can (and do) do much of this after the Image has been moved from the Sensor to the Massive Multi-Frame Internal Image Buffer RAM.  But little of this wizardry is available to or even considerate of the "Old" Canon SDK which is necessary for BYE to access the Camera and its Output.  So, while your camera may have a 17-frame 7fps Buffer, it will only release an Image to the SDK when it is "fully baked".

This is part of the reason why Modern DSLRs don't produce similar results when Tethered Shooting.

[s3igell]

23 hours ago, ivarhusa said:

Are there reasons why astronomers might want to haul their images off to the PC ASAP?

Short Answer:  YES

Most AP Imaging performed with BYE is Deep Space Imaging where the Exposures are multiple Minutes in length. The Download Delay is rather insignificant in such cases, especially if Dithering is also invoked.

Most AP Imagers make use of the available Image while further Image Exposures are occurring - either Live Stacking or simply examining the Images for Focus and Guiding/Trailing Errors and/or Cloud/Plane/Satellite Incursion.  Waiting until AFTER an Imaging Session is completed to ultimately find that the bulk of Images are ruined by something that could have easily been corrected at the time, is a real frustration and waste of Clear Nights and/or Travel to Dark Sites.

 

 

[ivarhusa]

Thank you for sharing the 'lay of the land' for me. I am tickled to have taken possession, today, of a Starguider Pro, from which I will hang a DSLR. Much fun to have yet.

[s3igell]

9 hours ago, ivarhusa said:

I am tickled to have taken possession, today, of a Starguider Pro, from which I will hang a DSLR.

There you go... Congrats!!

This will open you to a broader world of longer-exposure AP Imaging.

You'll still need to develop your skills - Polar Alignment and AP Image Stacking/Processing.  You'll also need to hone your Equipment List - rock-solid Tripod, Alt-AZ Wedge base (or gear-driven Pan-head).  The optional Dec-axis Mount / Counterweight kit will also expand the size of Lens you can mount (within reason).

I know you are just starting, but if you "get hooked" and want to expand your Lens list:

1. Add a "Nifty-Fifty" Canon f/1.8 50mm for Constellation-wide shots
2. Consider adding a Prime Lens at whatever Zoom Focal Length you find you prefer - they are Lighter, usually Optically "Better", and Faster. (eschew new Prime Lenses - look at the Used market for the 1980-2000 Nikon NIKKOR ED Lenses and a Nikon-Canon Converter Ring)
3. Consider a Williams RedCat51 APO Scope or Williams 61 ZenithStar APO - these styles of short/fast APO with Helical Focuser are usually light-enough to mount on your StarGuider

btw:  Is this the iOptron SkyGuider Pro or Skywatcher StarAdventurer Pro that you have?? Or some other model??

[ivarhusa]

I have a useful array of lenses to point heavenward.  My most recent acquisition was a 14mm Rokinon.  Within budget constraints.

I have the Canon 100-400 Mark II, which is nice for finding targets at 100mm and zooming in as needed.

Prior to obtaining the 100-400 I used, and still have, their 400mm prime lens (L).  That had a reputation for being pretty sharp, so I might expect good results from it.

I looked into the Redcat just now. It must be good, as there is a 2-3 month backorder list. It surprised me to read that it has a 250mm lens. I'd rather imagined that a purpose built astrophotography lens would be more for DSO, and have much long focal length. What role does this Redcat41 Scope play in one's arsenal of lenses? Are DSOs really within range of a 250mm lens (if it is good)?

No polar alignment for me last night. Smoke from wildfires.  The biggest ones are far from us.  No worries.

 

Apropos of nothing, I notices the tech specs for the Redcat41 includes report of the lens' Dawe's Limit as 0.46 arcseconds.  That seems an odd thing to report, as the limit is set entirely by the diameter of the lens, not its quality.  Perhaps the lens diameter for this focal length is rather larger than its competition.

[astroman133]

Look at the image in this review of the Cat --> https://www.amateurastrophotography.com/william-optics-redcat-51

I would say that the image was not taken with a color camera, however.

There is no single telescope that is useful for every target or group of targets. The role of the Cat is for medium wide field targets. I can imaging many targets that something with that FOV would be good for. Probably not splitting binary stars, planetary nebulae, or small globs, however.

[s3igell]

6 minutes ago, ivarhusa said:

I have a useful array of lenses to point heavenward.  My most recent acquisition was a 14mm Rokinon.  Within budget constraints.

I have the Canon 100-400 Mark II, which is nice for finding targets at 100mm and zooming in as needed.

Prior to obtaining the 100-400 I used, and still have, their 400mm prime lens (L).  That had a reputation for being pretty sharp, so I might expect good results from it.

I looked into the Redcat just now. It must be good, as there is a 2-3 month backorder list. It surprised me to read that it has a 250mm lens. I'd rather imagined that a purpose built astrophotography lens would be more for DSO, and have much long focal length. What role does this Redcat41 Scope play in one's arsenal of lenses? Are DSOs really within range of a 250mm lens (if it is good)?

No polar alignment for me last night. Smoke from wildfires.  The biggest ones are far from us.  No worries.

Apropos of nothing, I notices the tech specs for the Redcat41 includes report of the lens' Dawe's Limit as 0.46 arcseconds.  That seems an odd thing to report, as the limit is set entirely by the diameter of the lens, not its quality.  Perhaps the lens diameter for this focal length is rather larger than its competition.

It seems that you have a rather Healthy stable of Lenses - including some nice "L" Glass.

Unfortunately, as most Amateur Astronomy gear (Scopes, Mounts, Eyepieces, Adapters, everything) is sourced from Asia (China, Japan, Viet Nam, Thailand), the disruptions of COVID-19 have played holy havoc with Supply Lines.  If you find Anything that is In-demand and In-Stock, you've really Scored!!

The benefit of Prime Lenses over Zoom Lenses (and Scopes over Primes) are:

1. There are fewer Lens Elements required for a single fixed Focal Length than to cover any degree of Zoom;
   • Every Lens Surface scatters a percentage of the Inbound Light - even Fully Multicoated Surfaces are only 95-98% Transmissive; so a 12-Element Zoom might only transmit 80% of the Photons reaching the Front Element - yet AP Imaging is a Light-starved Endeavor
   • Every Lens Element needs to be Aligned Precisely; yet Groups of Elements need to Move in any Lens to provide Focus - even Precision Construction can allow some possibility of Misalignment that is more Noticeable in Finite Point-Source Stars than in the broad swaths of Color Detail of a Daytime Photo
   • Every Lens Element adds to the overall Weight of the Lens - not much of an issue for a Static Tripod, but a factor in determining the suitability of a Tracking / EQ Mount
2. Scope Lens Elements are Fixed in a single Lens Cell, minimizing any Misalignment; but all Scopes are designed with Collimation and other Corrective Adjustment tools to allow for User / On-site Correction of any noticed Alignment Issues
3. Scopes are always Engineered for a single Depth of Focus - Infinity; this obviates the need for most Optical Element Movements
4. AP Telescope Focusing Elements - Crayford or Rack-Pinion or Helical - are designed with Very Fine Motion in mind - usually a 10:1 Ratio Fine Adjustment Knob (and a Focus Lock)

Scopes - even those solely intended for DSO AP Imaging - come in all sorts of Focal Lengths and Focal Ratios and Apertures.  As do the Field-Size and Brightness of the DSO Targets.

Among the general DSO AP world there are:

• Maksutov-Schmidt and Mak-Cas - 4.5"-8" Aperture - usually f/15-f/12 - used for smaller DSO such as Planetary Nebula and Globular Clusters (and Planetary Video)
• Schmidt Cassegrain - 5"-14" Aperture - usually f/10-f/11 - Planetary Nebula, Globular Clusters, Smaller Distant Galaxies (and Planetary Video)
• Ritchey-Cretian - 6"-18" Aperture - usually f/8 - Planetary Nebula, Globular Clusters, Smaller Distant Galaxies, Smaller Open Clusters, Smaller Nebula (and Planetary Video)
• APO Refractor - 3"-7" Aperture - usually f/6-f/7 - Planetary Nebula, Globular Clusters, Moderate-sized Galaxies, Nebula, Open Clusters
• Imaging Newtonian - 6"-10" Aperture - usually f/4-f/5 - Larger Globular Clusters, Moderate-sized Galaxies, Nebula, Open Clusters
• Wide-field APO Refractors - 2.5"-5" Aperture - usually f/4-f/6 - Large Galaxies, Galaxy Clusters, Large Nebula, Large Open Clusters, Andromeda
• Wide-field Lenses - 1"-3" Aperture - usually f/2-f/6 - Large Nebula, Constellation, Nebula Clusters
• (yes, Scopes are usually described by Aperture and Focal Ration - leaving you to infer/calculate the Focal Length)

The RedCat 51 would be great with your APS-C 7DmkII to capture M31 - Andromeda - and actually have a bit of "space" around it for context.  Your 400mm Prime would require a 2-3 panel stitched panorama just to capture M31 in full. 

A Nifty-Fifty - 7DmkII combo could capture the central MilkyWay Nebulae (M8, M16, M17, M20) in a rich starfield background; or most of Taurus with both Pleiades and Hyades Clusters; or much of the Deneb-Cygnus Nebular Field; or Orion and Barnards Loop.

And your 16mm - 7DmkII combo could capture the Antares-M4-Blue Horse area of Scorpius; or all of Orion and Monoceros area adding the Rosette and Foxfur / Christmas Tree Nebulae to Orion and Barnards Loop.

While you are waiting for Clear Skies, spend a bit of time playing (daydreaming) with the Astronomy Tools FOV Calculator.  Check out the possibilities...

[ivarhusa]

Wow.

That FOV calculator is wonderful.  It literally puts things in perspective.  I figured out how to make this tool 'do my bidding'.  I adjusted focal length and eyepiece values to get the FOV for my 400mm lens and with 1.4 multiplier.  I get better resolution in my bird photos with it, but it costs me a 'stop'. Attached is an image showing what 1500 pixels wide can reveal when there is a lot of light!  I have hope of getting interesting images of the Lagoon Nebula

Attached is what I expect to see through my rig (I have a 5D SR), choosing M8 as my standard to measure against.

[s3igell]

In the FOV Calculator, you can select "Imaging Mode" and it will provide a selection of Cameras and produce rectangular FOV indicators, rather than present Eyepieces and produce circular FOVs.