Canon 200d Live View permanently with remote

[Meahcil]

Hello,

it is possible to introduce a function that can leave the live view function on permanently.
With my 200d it is so that the mirror would not hit.

Otherwise you always have to do this manually on the camera using the Live View button.

Thanks!

BR

Michael

[admin]

You want to avoid doing this... let me explain... this may/wlll introduce amp glow and will generate a lot of heat over time because some live view electronics will run all the time.

[astroman133]

I also believe that the camera has a built-in safeguard that turns LiveView off after it has been on too long. BYE cannot override this behavior.

[admin]

23 minutes ago, astroman133 said:

I also believe that the camera has a built-in safeguard that turns LiveView off after it has been on too long. BYE cannot override this behavior.

Correct; depending on the model, this is typically between 15 and 30 minutes.

[s3igell]

The real solution to "so that the mirror would not hit" is to get a Better Tripod.

There is a reason that Scope Tripods start at about 25lbs and go up to 150lbs rather quickly - the mass dampens vibrations much more successfully.

[Meahcil]

Hi there, thank you for the explanations. Unfortunately, the whole thing is not entirely correct. try it yourself! The live view plays a subordinate role. Example I have an exposure time of 240 sec or longer / shorter the live view is off anyway! in the meantime about 2 seconds the live view is then active for about 0.5 seconds ... that doesn't make the sensor hot!

another example. take a GM 4000 HPS and a Newton 200/1000 on top one makes exposures of 10sec, 20sec, 30sec, 40sec a '40 pieces and every time the mirror hits at the beginning. this makes the end result slightly blurryeven the best assembly and the vibration-free overall package does not help because that always leads to vibrations. Physics cannot be disputed with expensive equipment. Since the classic mirror lock-up takes a lot of time, it would be a better solution to activate the Live View, which in this case does nothing other than hold the mirror up permanently!and the camera does not turn off after 15 or 30 minutes or leave the live view mode. I can take pictures all night.

this is only an issue when the camera is not actively taking pictures! and that would be the only reason that the sensor heats up, you have live view on and do not take any pictures ...

Personally, I think it's a shame that this function is not introduced, but everyone could still decide for themselves what is better for them!

Thank you for your time! and don't get it wrong. the software is a great thing!

And sorry for my Lower Bavaria english 😉

BR,

Michael

[admin]

1 hour ago, Meahcil said:

And sorry for my Lower Bavaria english 😉

 

I feel like eating a Bavarian Schnitzel now

[astroman133]

No apology is necessary. Your English is much better than our German.

I don't understand what you are trying to achieve.

With long exposures vibrations from the mirror flipping up are overwhelmed by the subsequent signal and the effect of vibration disappears!

In your other example, even with short exposures, a Newtonian telescope on a 10 micron GM4000 HPS, vibration due to the mirror flipping up should be undetectable. Also, I do not consider a 10 second exposure to be a short exposure. Any vibration should be absorbed by the mount in a few milliseconds.

I would suggest that perhaps your blurriness has a different cause.

[s3igell]

On 8/24/2021 at 9:40 AM, Meahcil said:

it would be a better solution to activate the Live View, which in this case does nothing other than hold the mirror up permanently! and the camera does not turn off after 15 or 30 minutes or leave the live view mode.

It's not clear where you are getting this information, but it is incorrect.  LiveView is NOT the act of Lifting / Holding Open the Mirror.  Rather it involves the triggering of the Camera's Video Mode (And Focus and Tracking Logic) activating both the Sensor and the DIGIC 7 Processor and Buffer Memory as well as the extraction of "Frames" from the ROI of that Video Feed and the Queuing of those "Frames" to the USB2 Host Controller and Transmission Hardware - and Energizing the Mirrorbox Lift Solenoid.  It is all the Sensor and Controller activity which generates the bulk of the heat, and which (depending on model) will eventually trigger a Shutdown based on either Thermal Sensor Threshold or Timer.

 

If you want to see an example of that Heat Effect:

1. Setup your Camera (no Scope or Lens Required - just the Body Cap to exclude Dust) on your Desk or Kitchen Table or Outside (Nighttime is better but Daytime will work)
2. Allow the Camera to reach Equilibrium Temperature (near Ambient)
3. Connect up your Imaging Laptop and fire up BYE.  Set the Filename Template to include Temperature
4. Take a 10 sec Exposure - ISO doesn't matter
5. Set the Camera into Frame and Focus Mode and ensure that it is showing LiveView (completely dark but a bit of Noise) and leave it running (make sure Laptop doesn't go to Sleep Mode)
6. After 30 minutes (if the Camera hasn't already Shutdown with a Thermal Warning), Stop Frame and Focus Mode  (noting the increased amount of Noise displayed)
7. Take another 10 sec Exposure (same ISO as above)
8. Examine the resulting Images - starting with the Filename.  Note the difference in Temperature.  Note the difference in Noise.  Note the difference in Histograms.

 

Note:  The Canon SDK which BYE uses to Connect and Control the DSLR does not allow for activation of RAW Bulb Exposures while LiveView is activated, only short-duration JPG "Snapshots" (which BYE offers for aid in Focusing when the Field Stars are too Dim for LiveView).

I'm unaware of any Canon DSLR that allows one to perform a Bulb Exposure (even from the Shutter Button) whilst continuing to present LiveView Display.

[astroman133]

You are spot on about how to verify that LiveView causes the camera to heat up.

It is not possible to take still photos without interrupting LiveView. The simple fact is that LiveView cannot be causing the sensor to be read out while the camera is in the act of collecting data for an image.

With my T5i, I can image while LiveView is active, but the camera interrupts the LiveView display to take the image. Once the image is complete LiveView is automatically resumed. This works with both Tv and BULB exposures.

 

[astroman133]

The process with my T5i appears to be that when the shutter is pressed, the last LiveView frame is read out from the sensor, the exposure is started and at the end of the exposure the shuttter is closed and the mirror is dropped to facilitate reading out the image. Then the mirror is lifted and the shutter is opened so that LiveView can resume.

[Meahcil]

Hello s3igell,

thanks for the interest in this topic!
I got the information from myself, you can try it out without any problems! And what I have written is by no means incorrect!

 

But your explanation is absolutely correct , if you do this as you have described it, is clear that the camera heats up unnecessarily!

 

But the way you describe is a example does not happen in astrophotography. You don't set your camera to Live View and then wait 30 minutes for it to heat up ...
The Live View command should come exactly 2 seconds before the first exposure, then the mirror would be permanently up and everything would be fine.
And with the exposure series, it doesn't matter anymore because the camera is only in Live View for a fraction of the time.

Because the screen on the camera is not active during the exposure and no processor is active.

And the camera records RAW images all the time, not jpeg.

 

According to the description it would be impossible to use a DSLM (example Canon EOS Ra) for astrophotography...

and again it works perfectly if you press the live view manually before the exposure row beginns.
It works with every software I know. Or with a simple remote release.

And it is not a problem that it stays as it is, not everything has to be changed all the time!

Thanks for the time!

 

BR 

Michael

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Meahcil
Insert Name

[Meahcil]

28 minutes ago, astroman133 said:

The process with my T5i appears to be that when the shutter is pressed, the last LiveView frame is read out from the sensor, the exposure is started and at the end of the exposure the shuttter is closed and the mirror is dropped to facilitate reading out the image. Then the mirror is lifted and the shutter is opened so that LiveView can resume.

It works nearly the same way with the 200d. The only difference is that only the shutter moves (on the 200d).

live view button pressed- mirror is liftet - shutter is open - exposure - shutter is closed - reading out - shutter is open - exposure - shutter is closed - reading out -shutter is open ....and so on 

And if I understand you correctly, the mirror of your camera always moves at the end of exposure, then it is opend again.

[Meahcil]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:59 PM, astroman133 said:

No apology is necessary. Your English is much better than our German.

I don't understand what you are trying to achieve.

With long exposures vibrations from the mirror flipping up are overwhelmed by the subsequent signal and the effect of vibration disappears!

In your other example, even with short exposures, a Newtonian telescope on a 10 micron GM4000 HPS, vibration due to the mirror flipping up should be undetectable. Also, I do not consider a 10 second exposure to be a short exposure. Any vibration should be absorbed by the mount in a few milliseconds.

I would suggest that perhaps your blurriness has a different cause.

I have to agree with you, this is a very exaggerated example.
But I think it could especially help people who have a very small mount and are possibly close to the limit.

For me personally this is not a problem at all because my equipment is strong enough to handle the hits.

But I think there are enough people who only have a DSLR and some weaker equipment. In that case it would help a lot.

[astroman133]

It is an exaggerated example, but was meant to counter what was said that nothing else is going on during LiveView.

Have you tried BYE's Mirror Lock Up capability. I think that it does exactly what you are asking. It must be enabled on the Advanced Settings dialog then you see a Mirror Lock setting in the Capture Plan center. Just set it to 2 seconds and the mirror flips up 2 seconds before the shutter opens.

[s3igell]

16 hours ago, Meahcil said:

... your explanation is absolutely correct , if you do this as you have described it, is clear that the camera heats up unnecessarily!  But the way you describe is a example does not happen in astrophotography. You don't set your camera to Live View and then wait 30 minutes for it to heat up ...

Unfortunately, this scenario plays itself out a large number of times every night with all sort of DSLR Astro Imagers.  They use LiveView in combination with their Capture Software of choice (frequently BYE) in order to perform the Mount Alignment procedures, and the Polar / Drift Alignment, and then when Framing and Focusing on their Target.  This often runs up against the LiveView Timeouts of their DSLR.  We know - we've been active supporting users on this forum for better than 10 years (Guylain and Rick and I and a few others).

Quote

And the camera records RAW images all the time, not jpeg.

Correct, the Sensor is always read in RAW format.  But several functions, including the SDK LiveView and BYE's F&F Snapshot are only available in JPG.  Not that this matters to the OP Issue of LiveView/Mirror-Lockup.

Quote

According to the description it would be impossible to use a DSLM (example Canon EOS Ra) for astrophotography...

Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras (MILC) such as the EOS Ra are fundamentally different than DSLR.  They have no Mirror Box, nor Mirror in the path of the Incoming Light, and therefore have no need (nor possibility) of Mirror-Lockup (either for LiveView or for Bulb Exposures.

 

16 hours ago, Meahcil said:

I got the information from myself, you can try it out without any problems! And what I have written is by no means incorrect!

and again it works perfectly if you press the live view manually before the exposure row begins.
It works with every software I know. Or with a simple remote release.

The Live View command should come exactly 2 seconds before the first exposure, then the mirror would be permanently up and everything would be fine.
And with the exposure series, it doesn't matter anymore because the camera is only in Live View for a fraction of the time.

Because the screen on the camera is not active during the exposure and no processor is active.

And it is not a problem that it stays as it is, not everything has to be changed all the time!

Per your experiences with LiveView on your 200D, it sounds like the Engineers at Canon have implemented different Functionality than has been the norm for 20-plus years of all Canon DSLR Lines.  Perhaps this new functionality will be implemented in more DSLRs and MILCs in the future.  But as per experience of numerous Posters and Supporters, that is not the Implementation supported in the Canon SDK.  And the SDK defines what Guylain can develop for BYE.

 

 

 

[astroman133]

Meahcil,

Does the Mirror Lock capability that is already in BYE do what you are requesting?

[Meahcil]

8 minutes ago, astroman133 said:

Meahcil,

Does the Mirror Lock capability that is already in BYE do what you are requesting?

Hi there, it works with the mirror lock up!
 

Thanks for the great help!

would have loved to have had the "other" version because I would have brought the camera back into the live view remotely. but it doesn't matter the few steps i can also take on foot! 
The reason is actually that I operated BYE in conjunction with Ascom with N.I.N.A. since nina does not master some great functions of BYE!

thanks 

BR,

Michael

[astroman133]

I do not understand your statement "would have loved to have had the "other" version because I would have brought the camera back into the live view remotely. but it doesn't matter the few steps i can also take on foot!"

What you say makes it sound as though you believe that you must walk from your laptop to the camera to enter LiveView mode. This is not so!!! You can enter LiveView from BYE. This is basic BYE functionality that has been available since its beginnings. In fact, it is basic functionality that greatly helps you with focusing.

Switching from Imaging to Frame & Focus in BYE will start LiveView. No trip to the camera is necessary.

The downside is that for astrophotography, LiveView is only useful for 1) focusing on bright stars, 2) Planetary imaging, and 3) assisting with performing a drift alighment. This is because LiveView exposures are only a few milliseconds in duration and only show the brightest objects. There is nothing that BYE can do to cause the camera to increase the exposure time of LiveView images.

[Meahcil]

Hello,

ok i understand!
my english is to bad to explain! sorry!the mirror lock is good and functionality 
And i understand all functions that are possible are available.

Thanks for the support! 
 

BR,

Michael