BYEOS, Canon 6D, Lodestar, USB Hub = Failure

[fkleinha]

I have a problem which is driving me nuts

I can not get my Canon 6D and a Lodestar autoguider camera to connect to my Laptop thru a USB hub.  After a few sub frames, the system loses connection to the Lodestar while a sub frame is being downloaded.  PHD2 ver 2.6.3 quickly reconnects but I worry about the effect on guiding and dithering.  (Current tests are on benchtop with no mount or guiding.  But failures occurred first in field leading to these tests.)

 

Details:

 

Canon 6D, EOS drivers disk Ver 29.2

BYEOS Premium ver 3.1.8 connecting to either 6D choice.

Lodestar X1 or X2 and latest drivers from new disk or download ver 1.3.7.2

PHD2 ver 2.6.3 connecting to choice: Starlight Xpress SXV camera

Laptop = Thinkpad T430s Win 7 Prof 64 bit updated to ~ Feb 2017

 

I have tried changing everything:

1. Rebuild laptop

2. Change all cables

3. Change USB hub (usb2, usb3, usb2 powered)

4. Remove 10 ft usb extension cable.

 

The single substitution of an Atik Infinity camera as the autoguider solves the problem.

If I plug the Canon into a laptop usb port by itself and the Lodestar, mouse, and Temperhum weather stick into a usb hub into another laptop usb port; all works.  But, of course, this means 2 usb cables to the scope.

 

Any ideas why a Lodestar X1 or X2 and a Canon 6D can not coexist on the same usb hub??   In some naive sense, it seems that Canon 6D traffic on the hub/cable causes Phd2 to temporarily lose connectivity to the Lodestar (but not an Atik Infinity).

 

thanks, fritz k

[astroman133]

I use a Lodestar X2 as a guide camera without the issues that you describe.

 

My arrangement is cabled differently but all device connections go through a single active extension cable to the laptop. My laptop is a quad-core i7 with 1 TB SSD and Windows 7.

[admin]

This is a classic case of usb cable data saturation.  You have too much data on the wire at one time.

 

Try connecting the guide camera in a different USB port on the laptop, preferably a port on the other side of the laptop.

[fkleinha]

Thanks.

 

Yes, using two different laptop usb ports solves the disconnect problem.  But this begs the question of what the problem is.  My Canon 6D and Atik Infinity, as an autoguider, can coexist on the same usb hub.  So if the problem is 'usb cable data saturation', then some autoguiders must be more sensitive to this than others.

 

fritz k

[admin]

It's about how much data they put on the wire at any given time.  If the sum of all devices put all their data on the wire at the same time and this exceed the UBS2 protocol limit the applications requesting the data will simply have to wait; some physical devices are not well designed to cope with this; they ask for data and if data is not there immediately they fail in a not so graceful manner as you are experiencing

[admin]

Oh, if you  have a USB3 port on your computer do use a USB3 hub connected to that port and you should be fine.  This is because a USB3 hub will negotiate the proper USB speed for all request and will upload/download at the proper speed for each device.

[fkleinha]

Hope this is not a duplicate reply.  My first one seems to have disappeared into the ether.

Long story short:  I switched from the right rear USB jack to the left rear USB jack and now all is fine:  10 ft USB2 cable to USB2 hub to both camera and autoguider.

Thanks for the input which gave me the courage to keep on trying.

 

fritz k

[s3igell]

You might take a minute to examine your Laptop's USB Ports:  USB3 are specifically coded by being built with a Blue Plastic core, while most (but not all) USB2 are Black or Grey.

[fkleinha]

Well, my detailed reply got lost in cyber space:  In more detail:

 

The back of my T430s has a USB3 port on the right (blue core) and a charging activated USB2 port on the left side (yellow core; Lenovo calls this a 'powered port').

As noted about I can operate my gear off a hub off the left port, but not the right. This makes no sense.  This specific right port may be slightly defective or maybe Lenovo screwed up the design or maybe my USB3 Drivers are screwed up.  I don't think I'll ever know.  Right now I am just happy to have something that works.

And I thank everyone for their input.  It's what kept me going with various tests.

[s3igell]

The back of my T430s has a USB3 port on the right (blue core) and a charging activated USB2 port on the left side (yellow core; Lenovo calls this a 'powered port').

As noted about I can operate my gear off a hub off the left port, but not the right. This makes no sense. 

It makes simple sense:  Your Cabling and/or Camera configuration requires MORE POWER than the standard Laptop USB supplies.

The Lodestar X1 is Powered via USB, and probably requires the full load that the Laptop is able to supply.  That is STARVING the USB Hub of the Power it needs to Operate.

 

The Lenovo CHARGING Port provides almost twice the Power.  Enough to keep all of your Rig running...

 

[fkleinha]

Lenovo powered USB2 port:  Well, yes interesting, but?  I put a powered USB2 hub on the right USB3 jack and that made no difference.  System didn't work. 

I can find no evidence anywhere about the power available from the T430s 'yellow' powered USB2 port.  Everything I can find, e.g. the the T430s manual, says that  'powered' just means you can use the port to charge an external device  while the laptop is off; (after you make the appropriate settings in the power manager).  Because no special power specifications are given by Lenovo I interpret that to mean that the term 'powered' just means you can get standard USB2 power from the port, whether the laptop is on or off.  What is your source of information for the power available from the charging port?  I can find no such info in the Quick Start Manual, User Manual, nor the Hardware Manual for the T430s, nor with a google search.

fritz k

[s3igell]

What is your source of information for the power available from the charging port?  I can find no such info in the Quick Start Manual, User Manual, nor the Hardware Manual for the T430s, nor with a google search.

fritz k

 

My source is personal experience with a rather similar T420, where I found that I could more rapidly charge my cellphone via the "Always On" USB than the others supplied on the Laptop or the Docking Station.  This was a work-supplied Laptop, so it never served for powering my AP Imaging gear.

 

But, if you wish to Challenge all those who wish to contribute...

[astroman133]

After USB 3.0 first came out there were problems with plugging a USB 2.0 cable into a USB 3.0 port. The connectors did not quite mate properly. I don't know if you are seeing something similar.

 

I have also read, but have no first-hand experience, that not all USB 2.0 devices will work when plugged into a USB 3.0 port. The majority seem to be devices with drivers which pre-date the USB 3.0 standard.

 

Other than that I have no suggestions. I am still firmly in the USB 2.0 world.

[fkleinha]

Thanks for the continued interest in this problem.  Obviously USB2/USB3 connectivity issues are a difficult problem for many of us.  I can report that I asked Device Manager to update all the usb drivers and it reports that all are up to date.  And it may have been lost in the noise:  Even putting a 10ft USB3 cable on the right USB3 port and running that to a USB3 hub into which I hooked the Canon 6D and Lodestar also led to PHD2 repeatedly losing its connection to the Lodestar.  I conclude that either my right T430s USB3 port is defective or possessed by demons.  I don't think we will ever figure out why the right port does not work.  The left USB2 port works so I am happy.  Let us get back to astrophotography

fritz k