Setting Exposure in LIVE VIEW

[angelo327]

When first starting Back Yard Nikon I go to the Frame and Focus interface and sometimes the live view only shows a dark Image.  How do I control exposure settings in in Live View when the view is totally dark?  Is repeatedly guessing exposure settings one at-a-time untill I get close the intended method?

 

[astroman133]

LiveView exposures have a fixed duration that is only a few milliseconds long. Typically you use the ISO and exposure duration to brighten the image, but for astrophotography you will only be able to see the very brightest stars as faint dots. Still this is enough to support focusing.

If you need longer exposures then you need to use the Snap Exposure feature of Frame & Focus. It to can be used for focusing.

[admin]

Nikon's cameras do not work the same as Canon, where the latter has an "Exposure Simulation" feature and works relatively well.  Nikon, on the other hand, it is hit-and-miss. 

Older Nikon do not allow changing values while in live view; you need to pause liveview in BYN, make your changes, and resume liveview.  Make sure you select a time value < 2 seconds, it will not work in BULB mode, so change to manual or S mode.

On newer high-end models, you need to activate exposure simulation this way; disconnect the camera from the computer, activate live view, and press the OK button to activate live view simulation.  Once it is activated it stays activated, so using BYN afterwards will have live view simulation activated and changing shutter speed and aperture (if a lens is connected) does change the live view image.

Try that on your camera and see if it makes a difference.

This option is only on some selected high-end models.

[angelo327]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:06 AM, admin said:

Nikon's cameras do not work the same as Canon, where the latter has an "Exposure Simulation" feature and works relatively well.  Nikon, on the other hand, it is hit-and-miss. 

Older Nikon do not allow changing values while in live view; you need to pause liveview in BYN, make your changes, and resume liveview.  Make sure you select a time value < 2 seconds, it will not work in BULB mode, so change to manual or S mode.

On newer high-end models, you need to activate exposure simulation this way; disconnect the camera from the computer, activate live view, and press the OK button to activate live view simulation.  Once it is activated it stays activated, so using BYN afterwards will have live view simulation activated and changing shutter speed and aperture (if a lens is connected) does change the live view image.

Try that on your camera and see if it makes a difference.

This option is only on some selected high-end models.

I'll try these suggestions.  About BULB mode.  According to BYN instructions I thought I had to set the Camera on BULB for BYN to work.  BYW My lens is a Celeston SC C6" Telescope.  So yes I have a lense but it doesn't interact with the camera.  I'll play with moving the camera off BULB and activating Live View in the Camera before connecting the USB cable for BYNikon to connect. 

Thanks for the tips.    Trying to focus in Live View with a Moon as bright as my cars headlamp has been quite a challenge.  Many blurry images.  I pretty much have to get the camera focused before starting BYNikon and not using the focus controls in BYNikon since I can't actually see the focus quality until after I take the picture.   I was always getting good sharp images when using my Nikon D610 Camera with a Sigma 600mm lens but I wanted more pulling power so I got into the 6" Telescope Money Pit.  ouch!

[admin]

10 hours ago, angelo327 said:

I'll try these suggestions.  About BULB mode.  According to BYN instructions I thought I had to set the Camera on BULB for BYN to work.  BYW My lens is a Celeston SC C6" Telescope.  So yes I have a lense but it doesn't interact with the camera.  I'll play with moving the camera off BULB and activating Live View in the Camera before connecting the USB cable for BYNikon to connect. 

Thanks for the tips.    Trying to focus in Live View with a Moon as bright as my cars headlamp has been quite a challenge.  Many blurry images.  I pretty much have to get the camera focused before starting BYNikon and not using the focus controls in BYNikon since I can't actually see the focus quality until after I take the picture.   I was always getting good sharp images when using my Nikon D610 Camera with a Sigma 600mm lens but I wanted more pulling power so I got into the 6" Telescope Money Pit.  ouch!

BULB -> yes for deep sky imaging over 30 seconds.

Live view is not deep sky imaging when using a DSLR. BYN is limited to what the camera can physically do.

Keep us posted.

[astroman133]

What camera model are you using?

Does the model have separate shooting modes for Manual and BULB? If so, you may need to set it to Manual mode to try different shutter speeds to achieve maximum brightness. I would try by pointing the scope at a bright star, setting the ISO to the camera's maximum value and the exposure duration to 2 seconds. Remember that you may have to pause LiveView, then change the settings, then resume LiveView in order for the new settings to go into effect.

If BYN is like BYE, there is a "Maximum Sensitivity" setting on the LiveView area of the Settings dialog. This may help. Even so, bright stars will still be a small dim dot because of the short duration. They are, however, bright enough to use for focusing purposes.

[angelo327]

Well I've spent 2 days playing around with settings on the Nikon D610 and D90.  So far I've found just one way to chage the displayed exposure in BYN's Live View.  Setting the camera to BULB or any other setting has no effect.  Note: it doesn't matter when I connect the Camera either.  Nikon doesn't have a simulated live view unless a CPU lens is attached.

Here is what works.  Using the "Exposure Compensation EV settins" at the Camera will darken a bright image in BYN-Live View.  To make changes I click the PAUSE live view button, go to the camera and adjust the Exposure Compensation value (available values range from -5 to +4 EV) then click on the BYN-Live View Button> and the exposure displayed is changed according to the EV value I chose at the camera body.  Nothing I change in BYN has any effect on the exposure shown in BYN's Live View.  So this is working for me but i'd prefer it to work as it does in the Cannon Cameras you all seem to have.  

So everybody, which camera body do I buy so I can enjoy all of the features and convienance of Back Yard Nikon?  

[astroman133]

The obvious drawback of your workaround is that it requires that your computer be close to the telescope so that you can control the camera by manually changing the imaging settings.

Did you select Maximum Sensitivity in the Settings dialog in BYE while LiveView is paused?

I know that with Canon cameras only a sub-range of exposures has a brightening affect on LiveView. Also changing the ISO has an effect on the brightness. Setting the ISO to 1600 and varying the exposure from 1 second to 2 seconds makes a noticeable change. This can be done indoors in a partially darkened room.

One kicker with Nikons is that you typically need to pause LiveView, change the setting(s), and then resume LiveView for them to take effect. This is inconvenient, but still better than having to touch the camera.

There are not a lot of Nikon owners who actively provide advice on this forum. Or were you asking about a suggestion for a Canon camera body? If so you need to understand that a BYN license will NOT work with  BYE. You would have to buy a BYE license

[angelo327]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I will make another attempt to find a solution; and yes I was/am asking for recommendations. Your also correct that my work around isn't a solution.  I want to sit in my warm kitchen and take pictures of the moon when it's 19 degrees outside. 
My first camera back in 1975 was the (Argus C3). Then the Cannon FTB and A1.  I still have them all.  I spent 7 years in the darkroom.  I got into Nikon back in the early 90's for the new digital age. 
From 1989 - 2002 I built and supported computer networks for the FAA and from 2003 - 2022 I operated my own IT company. Today I'm retired; so ... 
I've taken up Astrophotography.  It is harder than working; what was I thinking....

I spent a pile of doe on a telescope that I can't enjoy because my 3 Nikon cameras won't work with the software I've chosen to use nor do they work well in other endevors like EyePiece projection (same issue with adjusting sensor sensitivity).  

So I'm asking for a lille help selecting a camera that supports Back Yard EOS.  There's half a dozen models to choose from.  They all are feature rich; yet if I miss one important feature I'll end up spending $2k on the wrong camera.  That would be the final last straw for this hobby.  I may just sell it all and go play golf. 

I'd greatly appreciate some suggestions for EOS models that support all the back-yard-EOS features.  My primary targets are planetary, lunar and solar; and eyepiece projection.  Deep Sky is interesting to me but, from what I see on youtube, way to much work. 

Clear Skies

Mike

[s3igell]

Mike,

Like most hobbies, AP Imaging (either DSO or Planetary) has it's equipment requirements and learning curves.  And to be honest, DSLRs aren't designed with AP Imaging at the top of their list.

Like Rick, I am also in the Canon camp - and picked up BYE more than a decade ago.  BYE does have a leg-up because most Canon DSLRs have (and expose to a Programming API) a serviceable LiveView feature with a form of Exposure Compensation.  But even on the best Canon DSLR, it is still a "shoehorned usage", as the LiveView /  Video Capture features are designed initially and almost solely for Daytime Photography.

If you are open to changing Camera Brands, I'd actually suggest that you consider switching to a purpose-built Planetary Imaging Camera - most common are the ZWO-brand.  Of course, you wouldn't be able to use BYE/BYN - but there are numerous Software Packages with different User Interfaces and Workflows to find one that fits your liking.

Moving to an actual Planetary Imaging Camera would give you benefits such as:

• Purpose-built with a suitable sized Sensor and *ONLY* the parts needed for Planetary Imaging (no dials / buttons / shutter box / lens focusing system /  memory card / etc)
• Exposure Speeds and Data Transfer Speeds suitable to the task
• Easily powered via external USB and/or 12V Battery
• Easily integrated to Semi-Automated Telescope Systems (Telescope-mounted mini-pcs such as ASIAir, and their associated Telescope Focusers / Filterwheels / etc)
• Would allow you to utilize your DSLR for Entry-level DSO Imaging when/if that aspect of AP Imaging were to interest you

I'm not trying to wave you off from BYE/BYN, but as your desired usage doesn't fit all that well with your DSLR (and you've already experienced a bit of frustration), the change might better fit your desires...

[astroman133]

Unless you buy a used, very old camera most Canon cameras have very similar support in their SDK.

I mostly moved away from using a color cameras for deep sky imaging when I discovered the advantages of using a monochrome camera.

However, I did use my DSLR (a T5i) for capturing the 2017 eclipse. The telescope was a StellarVue 130 with a 0.7 focal reducer. I used a soft solar filter from AstroZap, rather than a glass filter. The filter also reduced the diameter down to about 90mm.

Almost any Canon will work for planetary, lunar, and solar imaging, except for the DIGIC II models which do not have LiveView. I would also not recommend a 60D or 60Da because of the low LiveView frame rate. Also for solar system targets, a large sensor is not needed due to the small target size.

I would look on eBay for a T5i or T7i. You should be able to find the camera body only and a battery charger for around $200.

The attached image of the moon was shot by me using a very old EOS Rebel XSi. It was the one of the first Canon EOS cameras to have  LiveView. The image is a 6-panel mosaic. Each panel is a stack of 800 LiveView frames shot with BYE's Planetary imaging mode at 5X Zoom through a TeleVue NP127is. I used RegiStax to reduce each stack to a single  image and then stitched those images together with RegiStar for final processing in Photoshop.