Images saved both vertically and horizontally Why?

[Mick G]

Why are some images saved vertically and others horizontally.  The setup was exactly the same.  I took 10 images, then did the same thing again and they were saved differently.  I am getting an error code when I try to calibrate these images in PixInsight.  The error message does not come up if I eliminate the verticle images. Why is this happening and is there a way to rotate the verticle images so I can use them?  I really don't want to waste half of my images.

Thanks

 

Mick

[Mick G]

Thanks for all of your help.  The long and short of it.  The root cause fix was to turn off the auto rotation setting on my CanonDSLR.  That will prevent the problem in the future.  The fix for the already collected images was to open the "DSLR_RAW" module in PixInsight and click on raw in botttom left.

[admin]

Orientation is irrelevant, this is a display property only.

 

PixInsight will rotate images a full 360 degrees if it needs to so the real issue can't be that.

 

Are you stacking raw or jpg images?  

[astroman133]

What camera are you using? What version of BYE? Is the in-camera Auto rotate setting Disabled?

 

Also, as Guylain asked, are you trying to process RAW or JPG images?

 

As a work around you could manually rotate the "vertical" images before calibration.

[Mick G]

I am recording RAW.  I am using a Canon 1000D. BYE 3.1.6.  Sorry but orientation is relevant.  When I sorted only the horizontal images, I got no error message.  Add one verticle, no go.(Error: Incompatible image geometry

<* failed *> )

  I also don't understand why BYE is saving them differently.  There is no change in the setup.  This is one imaging setup and session.  I took 10 exposures, when completed without touching anything I hit Start Capture again and the images were saved differently.  How would I rotate the images?  Do I have to open each one in PI , rotate, save it then delete the first?

[admin]

BYE does not and never will rotate raw image data.  Images are as-is coming out of the camera with 0 alterations. 

 

The error you get is image goemetry. This is usually due to image size, not rotation.

 

Can you upload 2 of the conflicting images (dropbox perhaps) so you can inspect them?

[astroman133]

You should update to BYE 3.1.8. Not that I would expect your issue to change, just that we are all working with the latest.

 

There is a setting in the camera (Auto rotate). This setting tells the camera and image browsers to rotate the image when it is displayed. My T5i has 3 possible settings. I have this disabled, but even when enabling it, I could not duplicate your symptoms. As your mount tracks an object across the sky, the orientation of the camera with the ground changes, just like Orion rises on his back (in the Northern hemisphere), appears upright when due south, and sets horizontally and face first. The Auto rotate setting changes the displayed orientation of an image taken when the camera is oriented at 90 degrees to the ground. Is there possibly some side effect that is causing the behavior that you are seeing?

 

Do the images look different when displayed on the BYE screen right after they are downloaded? Is the EXIF data for the horizontal and vertical images the same? I believe that the parameters are ExifImageHeight and ExifImageWidth. These values come from the camera and are not modified by BYE.

 

Your image processing software (was it PixInsight?) can rotate images. I am not a PI user so I can't advise you on the details. I would not, however, delete your original images!

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hello Mick

 

  I have had the same problem with rotated CR2 images seemingly in random fashion in PixInsight.  I can't tell you why.  I heard, read or am making this up out of thin air, that the Canon cameras have an internal sensor the can tell the orientation of the camera.

 

  I have the EXIF text file turned on.  I have gone through a few photos EXIF files and found in the EXIF list, below the firmware version line has a line called CameraOrientation.  Some of my files have Horizontal - Normal and others have rotated 270 or something like that.

 

  I think that line maybe what is causing the rotation in external software.  After reading this post I did a search and found  something similar discussed on the SGP website/help line.  If you don't have the EXIF files save to text I suggest you turn them on and see if that line identifies when your images get rotated.  I just rotate the images back to normal in PI which is a 90 rotation.  If this is a problem you could probably write a script in PI to do the corrective rotation after you have separated the pictures and placed them in another file.

 

  I really don't think that Guylain can turn that line off.  The text file is just extracting what is in the image, CR2 image I believe.

 

  I have never made a complaint because I think it happens as the OTA and camera rotates while tracking through the session.  I could be wrong but that is my thought.  I have not found it that much of a bother and just worked through it.

 

Hope this may shed some light on the subject.

 

Ron

[astroman133]

Ron,

 

Yes, at least some Canon EOS models can sense the orientation of the camera when a picture is taken. I would expect that this value could change as an equatorial mount tracks a target across the sky.

 

What is the value of the in-camera "Auto rotate" setting in your camera?

 

For my T5i this Orientation EXIF value is always Normal (horizontal) when I disable "Auto rotate".

 

Do the images look "rotated" (in portrait mode) in when displayed in BYE?

 

Also, if you have the Premium version of BYE you can drag an existing image into the Preview area and then click on the "Rubik's cube" button to display the EXIF data.

 

When I enabled the "Auto rotate" setting in my T5i's menu, I can see that the value of the "Orientation" EXIF value changes with the position of the camera when the image was taken. However the images are always displayed in unrotated landscape mode in BYE. Based on this I would suggest that this is an issue with PixInsight. I would look for a way to turn off this rotation in PI.

[admin]

BYE does not and never will rotate raw image data.  Images are as-is coming out of the camera with 0 alterations. 

 

The error you get is image goemetry. This is usually due to image size, not rotation.

 

Can you upload 2 of the conflicting images (dropbox perhaps) so you can inspect them?

 

Hi Mick,  It would really help if you can share 2 of the conflicting images, one of each.

 

Keep us posted.

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hello Rick

 

  I have Auto Rotate  turned off on the 60Da. That was the first thing I checked the first time I had this occur.  I wonder if this may be related to cameras that have the level sensor in them.  They measure up and down as well as side to side.  The mount movement could easily tip things enough to register in the EXIF  I expect you have the level indicator of the T5i.  I think it started with the 60D and maybe the T models that came out just before or after.  I read once that Canon tested new features and hardware on the T models before putting them in the xxD models.  Don't know if that is true but could be.

 

  No in BYE everything is as expected, horizontal.  I suspect that PI takes all the information that is available in the CR2 file to use in processing.  In PI after I rotate it it stays that way the rest of the processing and all sessions following if there are any.  I don't know of any way to keep the software from reading it.  Since I take both CR2 and jpg,.I will see what happens with a .jpg image and see if it rotates.  I will do that tomorrow and check back

 

  Yes I know about the rubik's cube but there are times I like to be able to sit and read the file to see what I have done.  Kind of like tonight.

 

Ron

[astroman133]

Interesting, with my T5i, when I disable the "Auto rotate" setting, the Orientation always reads "Normal (horizontal)". In that case an image browser program (or PI) would have no basis for rotating an image.

 

Perhaps not all models behave the same way.

[astroman133]

OK, so I did some Googling. It appears that there is a setting in PI to control CR2 image rotation.

 

Read the following link --> http://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php?topic=8738.msg56526#msg56526

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hi Rick. 

 

  Thanks for the info on setting PI to not flip.  From that tidbit I am assuming that it only effects CR2 files and not .jpg.  I seldom, if ever,process jpg files ... intentionally.  Also that this could be come up in any software that uses full DCRAW module.

 

  The changing of orientation in the EXIF file must be model specific, not generic. 

 

Ron

[astroman133]

So you are saying that your camera does not have an "Auto rotate" setting?

 

This is what it looks like in my T5i:

 

 

I believe that my 1000D also had this option. So it seems like it has been a Canon EOS feature for quite a while.

[astroman133]

Mick,

 

I am glad that you are OK with your existing images, and going forward.

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hi Rick

 

  My 60Da does have the auto rotate option.  Mine is in the same menu as the fomat command.  It has been off from the beginning on this camera but I still have the rotation problem.  I dont know if something is broken or a firmware update scrambled that function on my 60Da.  I still wonder if it reflects the electronic level in the recent Canon cameras. 

 

  The auto rotate option is on the original Digital Rebel, which I just checked.

 

  I do expect that it is the 3rd party program reading the EXIF data from the RAW is the problem.  Lucily DCRAW seems to have included a way to keep from reading it.

 

  Again thanks for posting the PI fix.

 

Ron

[astroman133]

Ron,

 

You can take a couple of pictures one horizontal and one vertical and look at the value of the Orientation parameter in the EXIF data. That would tell you what the camera is doing. According to the manual for your camera the Auto rotate setting is supposed to work like it does for my T5i, so with Auto rotate disabled the EXIF Orientation should always be Normal.

 

If the camera has the Auto rotate option then it must have a sensor to know the orientation of the camera when the picture was taken. This sensor may be older than you suggest. My 1000D had the same capability and it was released in 2008 (4 years before the 60Da).

 

Also, if you want to read/search the EXIF data, you can display it in BYE, click somewhere in the data, press Control-A to select the all the data, press Control-C to copy everything to the Windows Clipboard, open Notepad, and press Control-V to paste the clipboard contents. Then you can close the window in BYE and read, search, or print the EXIF data from Notepad. I use that technique, as needed, rather than clogging up my hard drive with a text file for every image.

 

I am not sure what you mean by "The auto rotate option is on the original Digital Rebel, which I just checked." What is the "original Digital Rebel"? The D30? The first digital camera that was released in Canon in 2000?

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hi Rick

 

  The Original Digital Rebel was the first Canon DSLR that broke the $1000 barrier.  It has the name Digital Rebel on the front Right bottom looking at it.  I believe the D30 and D60 came before.

 

  Couldn't afford them but then I couldn't afford the Digital Rebel either but bought it.

 

  I will test the 60Da.

 

Ron

[Ron Hillstromb]

Hi Rick, et al

 

  I made sure the auto rotate was off.  It has been off since I got it brand new.

 

  I did two test.  One test was off OTA holding the camera horizontal for an image and the other image on the vertical.  The hoizontal EXIF read  Normal- Horizontal and the vertical image EXIF said CW 270 or something to that effect.

 

  After I put it on the OTA, I took several images.  The ones with the OTA  pointed at Polaris said Horizontal and the ones with the OTA pointed at M31 said CW 270.

 

  The Pix Insight solution works for me neither Photoshop Elements or Windows photo app flips these.  I don't know what the problem is if it is a glitch in the firmware or the tilt reports the orientation anyway.  I wasn't really bothered by it in PI before because I knew how to correct it.

 

  Since jpgs don't carry the full EXIF, if any at all, they are not affected.

 

  For me the issue is settled even though I don't know what causes it.

 

Ron

[astroman133]

Ron,

 

From your description it seems like an issue with the 60Da model not honoring the disabling of the Auto rotate setting. Well, at least you have a workaround for PI.

 

Thanks for testing!