Noisy "Frame & Focus" live view display

[mxcoppell]

Hi, BackyardNikon,

I don't remember if I had this problem before. But for my last couple of sessions I am always struggling with this problem. 

I am running the latest 2.0.9 BackyardNIKON. The high noise display in "Frame & Focus" really makes the focusing much harder. Did my search on this forum and attempted the following steps.

1. Disconnect the USB cable, activate live view on camera, saw the high noise display on camera.
2. Pressed 'OK' button to toggle the "Live View Simulation", the high noise display disappeared and I got black sky with clear stars. 
3. Connect the USB cable back, go to "Frame & Focus", the high noise display is still there. 

Question: How to toggle the "Live View Simulation" ON/OFF in BackyardNIKON?

Thanks!

 

[admin]

The is straight from the camera, you probably have a high ISO there.

Did you try the 5x zoom, this image looks like you do not.

What is the ambient temperature like in your area?

[astroman133]

What you are seeing is pretty normal and should not affect your ability to get a good focus. 5X zoom should also be used.

You probably have "Maximum Sensitivity" set in the BYN settings. This causes BYN to change the ISO and Shutter values to make stars easiest to see. If you want to manually control this, then turn Maximum Sensitivity off on the Settings dialog.

[mxcoppell]

3 hours ago, admin said:

The is straight from the camera, you probably have a high ISO there.

Did you try the 5x zoom, this image looks like you do not.

What is the ambient temperature like in your area?

I don't get this part. 

In the camera, I did have the following "ISO Sensitivity Settings"

• ISO sensitivity: Lo1
• Auto ISO sensitivity control: ON
• Maximum sensitivity: 6400
• Maximum sensitivity with flash: 400:
• Minimum shutter speed: 1/800

Is this the place or Live View have a different place for ISO sensitivity settings? 

Thanks!

 

[mxcoppell]

2 hours ago, astroman133 said:

What you are seeing is pretty normal and should not affect your ability to get a good focus. 5X zoom should also be used.

You probably have "Maximum Sensitivity" set in the BYN settings. This causes BYN to change the ISO and Shutter values to make stars easiest to see. If you want to manually control this, then turn Maximum Sensitivity off on the Settings dialog.

Thanks! I will check the Maximum Sensitivity setting in BYN. But the high noise Live View is really bothering. I did go to 5X, you barely can see the edge of the star. 

[mxcoppell]

5 hours ago, astroman133 said:

You probably have "Maximum Sensitivity" set in the BYN settings. This causes BYN to change the ISO and Shutter values to make stars easiest to see. If you want to manually control this, then turn Maximum Sensitivity off on the Settings dialog.

I did check the setting in BYN and the "Maximum Sensitivity" is unchecked. 

[admin]

What is the ambient temperature where you are?

[mxcoppell]

1 minute ago, admin said:

What is the ambient temperature where you are?

When I was shooting outside last night, I was about 42 Fahrenheit / 5.56 Celsius. 

[astroman133]

What is the actual ISO setting that you are using when you see the noise in LiveView? also what is the exposure duration? Both of those values act as brightness controls during LiveView which make everything brighter and so artificially increases background noise, as well as star brightness. None of this affects BYN's ability to measure the diameter of the star. You may be overthinking it.

[mxcoppell]

3 hours ago, astroman133 said:

What is the actual ISO setting that you are using when you see the noise in LiveView? also what is the exposure duration? Both of those values act as brightness controls during LiveView which make everything brighter and so artificially increases background noise, as well as star brightness. None of this affects BYN's ability to measure the diameter of the star. You may be overthinking it.

This is a good question - I am not sure when I am doing Frame & Focus, no plan is loaded. So is there a default shooting ISO and duration in BYN? 

For example, In BYN, I could set the default ISO/duration to lower ISO. Then go to "Frame & Focus" to see if there is any difference. 

Or, you are talking about the "ISO Sensitivity Settings" on camera, I could set it to ISO 100 and disable the "Auto ISO" to give it a try.

[astroman133]

The Camera Information Center at the top center of the BYN window displays the values from the camera.

Also,  the values displayed above the buttons at the lower right show the current values and can be used to change the duration and ISO for LiveView and/or Snap images..

The default values are whatever were last set in the camera, unless you have the Maximum Sensitivity option selected.

[mxcoppell]

1 minute ago, astroman133 said:

The Camera Information Center at the top center of the BYN window displays the values from the camera.

Also,  the values displayed above the buttons at the lower right show the current values and can be used to change the duration and ISO for LiveView and/or Snap images..

The default values are whatever were last set in the camera, unless you have the Maximum Sensitivity option selected.

Okay, never knew those ISO/duration values in "Frame & Focus" mode could be changed. Will try.

"The default values are whatever were last set in camera" - I didn't understand this part. You mean the ISO value used in last shot? or the camera "ISO Sensitivity Settings"?

Thanks!

[astroman133]

Not the ISO Sensitivity Settings value, the actual ISO value, which may or may not have been used by the camera in an image...It is reported to BYE when first connected, or whenever it is changed in the camera by you or by BYN.

[mxcoppell]

6 minutes ago, astroman133 said:

Not the ISO Sensitivity Settings value, the actual ISO value, which may or may not have been used by the camera in an image...It is reported to BYE when first connected, or whenever it is changed in the camera by you or by BYN.

Let's say it's first connect from BYN to camera - where does the camera get this value? Is it in configuration somewhere or from last shot? Sorry about digging this, there has to be a way to set it. 

[astroman133]

I am looking at the manual for the D500 and apparently Nikon has chosen to call the ISO value the "ISO Sensitivity". So they are one and the same. I am not a Nikon owner so did not realize this.

The camera remembers the last value set. If you are in Auto mode, it may be the value that was chosen by the camera's exposure circuitry for the last image. In Manual mode, it is whatever value you have set. BYN reads this value from the camera when first connected and then whenever the ISO sensitivity is changed

Here is from the manual for manual modes:

ISO sensitivity can be adjusted by pressing the ISO button and rotating the main command dial until the desired setting is

displayed in the control panel and viewfinder.

 

 

 

[mxcoppell]

Thanks! That's what I did for now. In the ISO sensitivity settings, I set the base ISO and turned off the Auto ISO (or maybe I could limit the Auto ISO high value to 1600). Will report back. 

[astroman133]

Again, the noise may be there, but should not affect BYN's ability to help you to adjust focus via LiveView. You may find that limiting the max ISO to 1600 makes it difficult to easily see bright stars to use for focusing.

[mxcoppell]

Agreed that ISO1600 might be too low. But at least I can find a way to reduce the live view noise. Not sure if Bahtinov mask focusing works well with that much of noise in BYN live view. 

[admin]

Just now, mxcoppell said:

Agreed that ISO1600 might be too low. But at least I can find a way to reduce the live view noise. Not sure if Bahtinov mask focusing works well with that much of noise in BYN live view. 

Probably will not.  The FWHM/HFD measurements should still work

[mxcoppell]

Update:

Somehow I made BYN LV control work. Didn't really understand why, but here are my steps:

1. In D500 "ISO sensitivity settings" set base ISO to certain value, for example: 1600. Turn OFF "Auto ISO".
2. Change shooting mode to "M" and shutter speed to 1/160, for example, take a shot.
3. Connect camera to BYN, in a dark room. "Frame & Focus", now you can change the ISO, shutter speed etc at the lower right corner. And the updated settings will immediately reflect on the Live View display.

Happy camper now. But would appreciate some better understanding!

Thanks for the help...

[astroman133]

I'm glad that you are now working. It may take a Nikon owner to provide you with more understanding. The described process seems awkward.

For example if the shooting mode is Manual, then the ISO value used for shooting should also be manually settable on the camera and from BYN. It should be something similar to this...put the camera into Manual mode, press the ISO button near the shutter and use the wheel to select the desired ISO value. This is how digital cameras typically work.

[mxcoppell]

45 minutes ago, astroman133 said:

I'm glad that you are now working. It may take a Nikon owner to provide you with more understanding. The described process seems awkward.

For example if the shooting mode is Manual, then the ISO value used for shooting should also be manually settable on the camera and from BYN. It should be something similar to this...put the camera into Manual mode, press the ISO button near the shutter and use the wheel to select the desired ISO value. This is how digital cameras typically work.

I think there are 2 things that factored in this:

• Auto ISO On/Off in Nikon camera "ISO sensitivity settings"
• The previous BYN session used BULB mode and this mode stays there in camera. Need to manually switch back to Manual mode

Not sure if I can switch from BULB mode to Manual mode in BYN?

Thanks!

 

[astroman133]

If switching between BULB and Manual is a physical, rotary switch then you must do that manually. Nikon does not support it via their SDK.

[admin]

Only the high-end Canon camera allows changing dial mode.

[jsguitar]

mxcoppell I realize that this post is a couple of years old but was wondering if what you did on your settings is still working in BYN.  I own a Nikon d7500 and was having the same problem. After seeing what you did, I adjusted the camera to the same settings. Connected camera to BYN and the noise was gone in a dark room.  What I noticed though is that if I change the BYN settings from Bulb to say 8 second shutter, live view noise returns.  Last night under the stars the noise went away when I held my red beacon light at the scope and trying the telescope outside in the daylight there was no noise so it has to be a shutter speed/ambient light situation.  Because of your questions and update I may have something to work with now.  I couldn't find anything under the BYN help section.  Don't know if you still follow this thread but if you do, thank you.

[astroman133]

With many cameras, when you increase the shutter duration and ISO during LiveView, it brightens the image. This increases the noise as well as the signal.

Let me say that again. In LiveView, if you adjust the shutter or the ISO and the image gets brighter this is not affecting the frame rate, only the brightness. In order to brighten the stars, it also brightens the noise. This is typical behavior.

Normally, the noise does not affect your abliity to focus your telescope. If you want to frame dim objects, you may need to take short snap images (like a few seconds long). BYN can be set not to save those images. Snap images can also be used for focusing.