USB hub

[KevW]

Got BYN up and running last night with my D7000.  Love the frame/focus feature!!  Waiting for my DSUSB cable to arrive but I'm realizing I'll soon run out of usb ports. Found out quickly that BYN doesn't like a  hub...so I ran straight in and it worked no problem.  The issue for me is the 'no hub' deal.  PHD2 doesn't like to see my asi224 on a hub..took it off....BYN needs a port , so I'll only have one left (out of 3)  DSUSB will need one and my handset one also. I'm hoping the DSUSB cable and the handset can run on a hub taken from my last free port on the computer.  Any chance BYN will ever play nice with a hub or is it an issue that is likely to remain?

Thanks in advance,

Kevin W.

[admin]

BYN doesn't care if you use a hub or not; but the Nikon SDK might.

The key is the amount of data being transferred and any given time.  If you plug your camera in a hub along with other devices that are data hungry, the usb host may get saturated with data and this is where things start to go downhill... the Nikon SDK will see this as a camera disconnect since it's expecting instant communication and it's being delayed by the over saturated hub.

Separate your cables and use a hub only for a few low data items.  The DSUSB cable is a good candidate for a hub, your handset too.

Regards,

[astroman133]

Kevin,

The problem with using a hub with your Nikon camera occurs in the Nikon SDK's communication with the camera. Since BYN relies on the SDK, this means that BYN is at the mercy of the limitations of the SDK. In short, if a fix comes it will be due to Nikon "fixing" their SDK to eliminate the hub limitation. Certainly this seems possible since their main competitor (Canon) has no such limitation.

In the meantime, you could try to use only Microsoft certified cabling and high-quality, powered hubs to try to try to find a combo that works. Also make sure to pay particular attention to keeping the cable lengths shorter than the USB specification and no longer than is necessary.

 

[KevW]

Thanks for the quick response guys!  Kind of what I figured...the handset & DSUSB should work on a hub.  And on the evenings when nothing seems to work I can always go back to live view on the camera and intervelometer (which is how I've done the majority of my imaging up until now)  Only added the computer a few weeks ago for autoguiding, and figured I best get used to it before my trusty D7000 clicks out and I move to a dedicated CCD...or CMOS.

[admin]

Does you laptop have usb ports on both sides?

If there is, it is very likely that usb ports on each side have separate host usb bus inside your computer.  Make sure you don't connect both cameras on the same side, that will help as well.

Regards,   

[KevW]

Unfortunately my laptop has its three ports on one side. The connection issue doesn't really affect me right now as I only do frame/focus in BYN and then disconnect to use my intervelometer. Once I get the DSUSB hooked up I'll be capturing from BYN and will find out quickly if everything plays together...particularly  224-->PHD2 and  D7000-->BYN.  Thanks to the crappy weather we've had here, I've been able to set up in the garage and iron out most of the issues.

Thanks again...great support here!

 

Kevin

[s3igell]

There is also a Big Difference in USB Hubs - between Cheapos and Solidly-built Unit - and between Chipsets Used.  There is also a Difference between Powered and Unpowered Hubs.  Your D7000 is self-powered, but your ASI224 is USB-powered.  Make sure that you get a Powered Hub for use with the ASI224 - it will make a World of Difference.  Powered Hubs also help overcome any effects of Cheap Thin-gauge USB Cables or Longer Cables in general.  My preferred brands are ANKER and ASUS and NEEWER.

(Note:  You can also throttle-down the USB Port Throughput of the ASI224 to good effect -ZWO is notorious for setting their USB Interface chips at FULL-SPEED even when they know the problems are bad.

I live in a Canon BYE and CMOS world, so I can't stipulate any specific USB Hubs which I've known to work with older Nikons.  But, the brands listed above are Good Ones.

[KevW]

Great info....thanks. The asi224 and D7000 both worked through a non-powered hub into SharpCap and APT respectively....no issues. PHD2 on the other hand, didn't like the 224 through that hub....and BYN didn't like the D7000 through the hub.

It's  pretty obvious that software deals with usb hubs differently.

Maybe a powered hub would keep PHD2 happy.

And I want to use BYN so I'll deal with the "Nikon thru a hub to BYN" issue.

Edited October 18, 2019 by KevW
Clarity

[astroman133]

A USB port usually provides 500 ma. When an unpowered hub is connected to the PC that is what the PC provides. This means that the unpowered hub can only provide a max of 500 ma to all ports. A powered hub can provide 500 ma to each port. So whether a given setup works or not depends on the power actually available to the hub, and how much data is being pushed through it.

Again, it is not BYN that does not like to communicate through the hub, it is the Nikon SDK.

[KevW]

I absolutely understand that astroman....makes perfect sense. I guess APT has worked around that limitation...the Nikon SDK was happy to play with a non-powered hub when APT was calling for the camera...it worked fine.Not a big deal though and my intent wasn't to pit APT against BYN....but once again, it's pretty obvious that BYN dosen't like to  deal with a non-powered hub, the SDK from Nikon will...depending on the software.  I want to and am using BYN...the frame/focus feature outshines anything APT has to offer.

[astroman133]

KevW,

I forgot to mention  the following caution is taken from page 180 in the Nikon D7000 manual regarding cabling the camera to the computer:

"Connect the camera directly to the computer; do not connect the cable via a USB hub or keyboard."

[KevW]

Okay....I get it. Apparently its going to be a lot easier for me to simply ignore the success I had with APT and the Nikon SDK through a hub....as you are. I really did come here with good intent and a simple question....please refer to my OP and subsequent responses.

[astroman133]

KevW,

Your question was "Any chance BYN will ever play nice with a hub or is it an issue that is likely to remain?".

You seem to be saying that since APT and BYN both use the Nikon SDK for control of the D7000 and since APT works when the camera is connected through a hub and BYN does not work with the same setup, that BYN is doing something wrong.

The problem is that for most users and most setups, there is no problem like you are seeing. Complicating this is the fact that while Nikon tells their users not to tether their cameras through a hub, but not why.

Notice that I said "for most users and most setups". Some people have had similar issues but perhaps fixed them in different ways...changing their cabling, changing their camera, etc. They have not always told the community how they fixed the issue that they were seeing. Changing BYN's behavior to attempt to overcome this type of problem is likely to take assistance from the community-at-large. Your experience has been different in that you also use APT and have seen different behavior.

My comment was that USB port management is handled in the SDK and that BYN does not know that the camera is connected via a hub. Guylain even confirmed this. The same would be true with APT. So how, then, does APT work but BYN fail? I can pretty much guarantee that if Guylain were convinced that he could make a change to BYN to improve its ability to work with additional setups, including USB hubs, that he would surely do so. If you are willing, you can help him to begin this investigation.

Your description of the issue is that "Found out quickly that BYN doesn't like a  hub". Can you elaborate on this? Please re-describe your setup, in detail, and describe a specific set of steps that consistently causes BYN to fail. This would include the specs for your laptop, the version of Windows that you are running, the USB devices that are connected when the failure occurs, as well as the software that is accessing those devices and what that software is doing. For example, PHD2 version 2.6.6 is connected to a guide camera (ZWO ASI 224) and mount via the ST-4 cable and that guiding is active with 4 second exposures. It would also be important to know that when replacing BYN with APT and keeping the rest of the hardware and software the same, that APT never fails to communicate with the camera.

Since BYN distributes the Nikon SDK that it uses, I assume that APT does the same. Can you tell which version of the SDK is being used by APT?

Providing this type of detail is the only way that Guylain can begin to investigate and craft a solution.

It was also suggested that you only use a powered USB hub to concentrate USB devices into your PC. Did you do this? Did it change the symptoms that you are seeing?

Thanks for your patience!

 

 

[KevW]

Okay....good deal. I was expecting a response like this a little earlier in the thread....but I'm okay with a refresher on usb hubs etc.  Lots of clouds lately, so I'll get to work on re-creating the issue and providing the details. And to repeat...not a big deal if it doesn't work....the intent was not to bitch about this or that not working....simply a question. And when people keep telling me something won't work but it does , I'm obviously going to engage.

Thanks for YOUR patience!

[astroman133]

Please also understand that I am only affiliated with O'Telescope as a long-time BYE user and in no way do I speak for the authors of BYE or BYN, so my comments are in no way a commitment that Guylain will address or even investigate what is causing BYN to fail when the camera is connected through a hub. I only state what is likely obvious to all which is that if BYN is able to support that type of hardware setup that there may be several existing and future customers that would be delighted.

I used to use a guide camera that worked just fine as long as it was connected directly or through a powered USB hub, but when I connected it via a Cat 5 USB extender would not connect with PHD. When I contacted the manufacturer about this, they indicated that it was likely some kind of timing issue, but my configuration was enough of an edge case that they would not be likely to investigate or make changes to the driver to make it work for me. I put that camera on the shelf and have not used it since, even though I no longer use the Cat 5 extender. I mention this so that if other BYN users have a similar issue to KevW and their workaround is less than ideal, it would be to their advantage to speak up now. The fact that multiple users are potentially affected may make Guylain's investigation of the issue a higher priority.

Who knows... If Guylain is able to rally enough SDK users to get Nikon's attention they may be able to change the SDK so that USB port management is more tolerant of the camera being connected via a hub so that it works for all models of camera in all connection situations the same way.

[KevW]

Thanks for the response....I hope people realize the valuable resource experienced users like yourself add to this type of forum...I certainly do.  My D7000 is now 9yrs old and live view is starting to fail ,  but I will continue to use it until it dies. My dsusb cable from shoestring should be here next week , which is the final piece to my setup.(Which I've built up one piece at a time)  I will report back on what combination is working for me to possibly assist anyone else with a d7000.

Thanks again.

[KevW]

This configuration works:

Nikon D7000  (modified)

Celestron AVX mount

BYN  2.0.10

StarTech  powered usb 3.0 hub

Shoestringastronomy DSUB 

ASUS Laptop X540BA

Windows 10 home- 64bit

Version 1809 

OS   17763.973

PHD2

SharpCap pro

Everything plays nice...all perhipherals are recognized and working properly.