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nightskywatcher

Support for Mirrorless Canons

Question

Hello

Contemplating a Canon for Lunar, Planetary and wide view.  Intrigued especially by the EOS R and 550 Mirrorless because of the awesome live views.

Will BYEOS ever support the mirrorless?

If not, suggestions?  These all look GREAT to me:

77D (advanced technology gen speaking)

80D (ISO-less)

7D Mk II (APS-C great noise characteristics)

i have an f7.5 TAK TSA-120.

Thanks.

D.D.

 

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It all depends on Canon.  So far Canon has butchered their mirrorless (the M series) cameras by removing tethered shooting from the SDK.

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D.D.,

Canon's initial mirrorless camera offerings M/M2/M3/M4 are not supported by BYE because Canon made the decision to not allow them to be tethered to a PC for remote control by apps like BYE. I don't know about the models that you mentioned, but if Canon does allow them to be controlled via their SDK software library, then it is very likely that BYE will support them.

So, what kind of lunar? catching the entire disk or specific regions or craters? You need only a modest focal length telescope and a camera with a APS C-sized sensor to capture the entire disk. You can use 5X zoom with BYE's planetary functions to capture parts of the disk that can be used to make a high resolution mosaic. If you want to image specific features at high resolution then you need a long focal length scope, but still don't need a full frame sensor.

Planetary imaging (Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) needs a long focal length...on the order of 4 meters or more. and the area of interest is so small that most of a full frame sensor will be worthless. Also, if your scope has only a 2" focuser, the opening may be too small to fully illuminate the sensor of a full-frame camera. With that scope you would be better to choose a camera with a C-sized sensor.

For the types of imaging that you mentioned, even a relatively low end T5i, or similar camera, would be suitable.

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13 hours ago, nightskywatcher said:

the EOS R and 550 Mirrorless 

77D (advanced technology gen speaking)

80D (ISO-less)

7D Mk II (APS-C great noise characteristics)

The list of DSLRs in your post is rather confusing, as none of these are Mirrorless Cameras.

I own the 550D and 7DmkII, and while almost a decade apart in design, BOTH do almost the same for BYE Planetary Imaging as this feature is based on transferring the LiveView data that is otherwise used to display on the DSLR's Rear LCD.

77D, 80D, 7DmkII - all of these use Sensors with very similar design and capabilities.  All of these use the Canon "mid-size body" (except the 77D which is actually part of the REBEL series with a smaller body).  The Bulk and Weight of the DSLR Body factors into the Imaging Performance of the Mount and the Focuser of your AP Imaging Rig.

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6 hours ago, s3igell said:

The list of DSLRs in your post is rather confusing, as none of these are Mirrorless Cameras.

I own the 550D and 7DmkII, and while almost a decade apart in design, BOTH do almost the same for BYE Planetary Imaging as this feature is based on transferring the LiveView data that is otherwise used to display on the DSLR's Rear LCD.

77D, 80D, 7DmkII - all of these use Sensors with very similar design and capabilities.  All of these use the Canon "mid-size body" (except the 77D which is actually part of the REBEL series with a smaller body).  The Bulk and Weight of the DSLR Body factors into the Imaging Performance of the Mount and the Focuser of your AP Imaging Rig.

 My bad; should have been the M50 rather than 550.  The EOS R is mirrorless according to the Canon website, and is now supported by the SDK as of 9/25/2018.

https://developercommunity.usa.canon.com/canon

I had a Nikon D5600 for the last solar eclipse, and using BYN, I was able to achieve good (but not great) focus.  Reading camera reviews of the EOS R, I got the impression that the Live View of the mirrorless cameras was vastly superior because you were viewing what was going to be ultimately recorded with all of the parameters applied.  Also great for computer-less imaging.  The Nikon D5600 is the only DSLR I have used, so I'm certain that a whole lot of my perceptions are not correct... thanking everyone in advance for their patience.

One more thing concerning the M50 is that a certain CN thread  https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/636296-cheapest-mirrorless-cameras-for-astrophotography/page-2#entry8918507

 claims the M50 is supported by the SDK, and APT (Astrophotography Tool) supports remote shooting via tethered USB. 

Concerning my upcoming camera purchase, the only 'hard' requirement is that it's supported by BYE...  Other items on my wish list are:

1) articulating screen,

2) small pixels to go with my F/7.5 120mm TAK,

3) APS-C sized chip preferred, since I don't have a scope that can illuminate the chip fully.  I could also crop so this is not a deal-breaker.

4)  a near 1:1 cropped live view to use for occasional planetary video,  GREAT live view planetary video is a very high priority.

5) extremely low noise and dark current CCD/CMOS chip,

6) Sensitivity, and (of course)

7) Coolness / value factor.. I do enjoy knowing that I did my research and got something that will make me happy when I use it..

Other issues I'd like resolved are:

I) How do the "ISO-less" cameras affect the imaging process?

II) The 7D Mark II seems to be controversial, but this review by ClarkVision http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1/web/horsehead.rclark.c11.22.2014.0J6A1680-1750-sugav70.f-bin4x4s.html

      makes it sound like an awesome choice.  Another thread, https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/585737-test-of-canon-80d/

claims the 80D is anathema.

So many choices is a good thing, but I surely didn't think it would be this complicated.  Maybe it's me overthinking it.

Thanks for your time.

David D

 

 

 

 

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Comments on a few points above:

  • A modern DSLR with an Articulating Screen is Good, as it allows you a less-cumbersome way to get a quick view at where the Scope is aimed, but for Focusing or Framing or Image Review you will REALLY Want the 8x larger LCD Screen of your Laptop.  However, for Daytime Imaging, the Flip-out Screen is a godsend.
  • Resolution should be about 2x the average Seeing at your Imaging Locations (much of USA is at 2-3arcsec Seeing - best in New Mexico and Southern Arizona is 1.25-1.5arcsec).  Anything is deemed Oversampling, whereby all you can do is "Chase Seeing Conditions". Thus, you can do well with a Pixel Resolution of 1arcsec.  The 80D and 7DmkII and any of the Rebel Series (from 550D through 750D and 77D) will give you that, only the 6D fails to give at lease 1arcsec/pixel for your TAK TSA-120. (see https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/)
  • Your TAK TSA-120 has a 2.7" Focuser, which will surely Fully-Illuminate even a Full-Frame Sensor.  At f/7.5, even an M48 T-Adapter should do so (that is what they were designed to do).
  • BYE/BYN is your best bet for "near 1:1 cropped LiveView".  In fact, except for the old 550D and 60D, it is your only recourse to produce that sort of Video Capture (both those models had true "Native 1:1 Crop Video 640x480 Output").
  • The 6DmkII and original 6D are the Champs at that for Canon DSLRs. The 7DmlII is rather close behind, per some tests (not per others).  Even the 80D does much better than the Gary Honis post that you referenced (even Gary reports in that same thread that a 2nd copy did well enough in his informal testing that it would have been 2nd only to the 6D of his more thorough tested models).  And, except for the 2-stage and 3-stage cooled Astro CMOS/CCD Cameras, these DSLRs are about as good at Low Noise as any Camera. (Sony excluded - but those have "Star-Eater" issues instead).
  • ISO-less-ness may be a "fad", as DSLRs need only Image at "Native ISO" (usually 800ISO).  That is the sweet spot between Noise Generation, Read Noise, and Dynamic Range. (Similarly, most AP Imagers with CCD Cameras are told to Image at "Unity Gain" for same reasons.)  High ISO doesn't make the Sensor any more Sensitive - these aren't the old days of true "Chemical ISO" film formulations.
  • I like my 7DmkII - all except it's "Cloud Magnet" Feature.  As noted above, Gary Honis contradicted himself in the "80D is anathema" thread.

 

My suggestion:  Snag a Used T5i (700D) and get on with Imaging.  Once you know more about what you Can Do, then start the Upgrade Process.  I'd bet that there will be other areas of your AP Gear that you decide to Upgrade first (Mount, AutoGuiding, Image Processing Software and Hardware).

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14 hours ago, s3igell said:

Comments on a few points above:

<snip>

My suggestion:  Snag a Used T5i (700D) and get on with Imaging.  Once you know more about what you Can Do, then start the Upgrade Process.  I'd bet that there will be other areas of your AP Gear that you decide to Upgrade first (Mount, AutoGuiding, Image Processing Software and Hardware).

Thank you very much... you have addressed my concerns very well...  Much appreciated.

I have an excellent ATIK 490ex that I use for my smaller, dim objects, and it’s great for my yearly dark-site visits.  I believe the FOV is about .5 degrees, and it is my small galaxy killer.  It does not serve me well for lunar, planetary, or larger objects.

I hadn’t considered the 6D MKII, but it looks killer.. it has just about everything you could want in a dual purpose camera.

Some new considerations,

- wouldn’t I need a FF with the TAK?

- Why T5i?  Refurbed they are like $700.  Not disputing, because I’m sure it’s based on a lot of factors, but that price point is so close to what you can get a new camera for.  What does this camera have that makes it so attractive?  I hear 7D Mk ii now discontinued and prices may drop dramatically.

Thanks again.

Clear Skies

DD

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28 minutes ago, nightskywatcher said:

Thank you very much... you have addressed my concerns very well...  Much appreciated.

I have an excellent ATIK 490ex that I use for my smaller, dim objects, and it’s great for my yearly dark-site visits.  I believe the FOV is about .5 degrees, and it is my small galaxy killer.  It does not serve me well for lunar, planetary, or larger objects.

I hadn’t considered the 6D MKII, but it looks killer.. it has just about everything you could want in a dual purpose camera.

Some new considerations,

- wouldn’t I need a FF with the TAK?

- Why T5i?  Refurbed they are like $700.  Not disputing, because I’m sure it’s based on a lot of factors, but that price point is so close to what you can get a new camera for.  What does this camera have that makes it so attractive?  I hear 7D Mk ii now discontinued and prices may drop dramatically.

Thanks again.

Clear Skies

DD

  • The Pixels on the 490ex are as large or a bit larger than those of the Rebel DSLRs mentioned above.  That is because it is the Sensor from an earlier version of Sony Camera.  Results of the 490ex will be better simply because of the Cooling and the lack of an Anti-Aliasing Filter found in the DSLRs.
  • Yes, unless your TAK has a Built-In/Built-On Frame Flattener, you will WANT (but not necessarily Need - You can take Images with some amount of Aberrations notable around the Outside) the suggested FF.  While I'm no expert on your TAK, it appears there are 3x TAK FF's that are noted to work with your Scope.  They are Pricey, Pricier, and More-Pricier; but you have a High-End/Expensive Scope on your hands.  Speak to an expert such as at OPT or Highpoint...
  • I mentioned "USED" rather than "REFURB'd" - there can be significant Price Differences (ADORAMA has one USED T5i listed for $199.00 and others for $300).  Remember, with AP Imaging use one does NOT need 100% of the Features of a DSLR to Work.  At a minimum, the Sensor and Shutter and USB need to work.  Rear-LCD and SD Card Port and Anti-Shake and Auto-Focus and ViewFinder and Light Meter and Flash are literally "Bonus Features" that won't be used for most AP Imaging with a Scope.  (And that $199.00 T5i is at that Reduced Price simply because the Built-In Flash "Will Not Pop-Up Automatically - But WILL Manually Extend and WORKS" - totally UNIMPORTANT for AP Imaging!!)

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On 1/24/2019 at 2:49 PM, nightskywatcher said:

 My bad; should have been the M50 rather than 550.  The EOS R is mirrorless according to the Canon website, and is now supported by the SDK

 

 

 

 

Back to the original question: 

Now that the M50 is supported by the SDK  can you please tell me if and when it will be supported by BYE?

Thanks

DD

 

 

 

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From trolling the Canon web site, I can see that the M50 is supported in version 3.8 and later of the EOS SDK.

Historically, BYE has supported every camera that the SDK has supported, with some limitations. Even the old DIGIC II cameras are still supported by BYE if you have a 32-bit version of Windows and a low-level driver installed.

So the question is likely not if...that is a given as long as the SDK supports it, but when.

I believe that Guylain already has a new version with the latest release of the SDK. He typically needs volunteers to work with him to do some testing of the newly supported models. If he had 20 customers offer to help him test a new model like the M50 I would expect it to be available in a pre-release version quite quickly.

Of course I am just a BYE user as you are, but I have been here for several years and understand his commitment to his customers and to his product. Hopefully he will respond to you

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No testers needed, what I did does not work and I can't do nothing without a camera to test.  I contacted Nikon and they will be send me a camera for testing.... but this can take months before they have one available from their loaner pool.

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4 hours ago, astroman133 said:

Did you mean Canon?

Crap, I replied to the wrong post, my previous post was meant for the Nikon Z series cameras to which I have a pending request with Nikon for 2 loaner cameras for testing.  Unfortunately I don't have this connection with Canon so I can not get cameras for testing... I need to buy them and this is not necessarily feasible.

Good catch. 

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